RedlessWardrobe said:

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calumnus said:

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Bell's 16 points was the most since his 20 in our ACC opener against Louisville. Getting him back as a confident scorer is huge.

Dort back healthy with an improved Ilic and now even Dut playing well…. I think our best basketball may be ahead of us.

---

Like Big C above, I'm not trying to be a wet blanket and I'm sure that Ilic is giving maximum effort, but I don't understand how a forum that often gives no mercy to a player like Campbell, or sometimes even Dort, continues to be so soft on Milos. In yesterday's game he played 24 minutes, gave us a total of 2 points, 2 rebounds. In addition, on the defensive end he was basically non-existent, with Miami scoring 48 points in the paint. The fact is, if you watch the last play of the game, when Henderson goes up for the final shot, Dut's presence rising up slightly alters Henderson's release. If it had been Milos defending there, I think that shot goes in.

Again, I'm rooting for Milos as a Cal fan, I think he's giving full effort, but for right now it sure likes more often than not he gets a pass here when other players don't. That being said, it was a great victory!

---

With Dort out, MM's choices were Ilic and Dut fouling as little as possible, mixed with some small ball when they are not capable of 40 minutes...So it was a team effort...Instructions I would guess to Ilic, is keep out of foul trouble for if you go out quickly it forces a strategy that is not ideal (small ball or Dut) but can survive for short bursts...He did what he needed to do, and is certainly no Dort, but kept us in the game for our other four on the court to win it. And win it they did....But if Ilic were playing back up minutes to Dort I would look at his stats entirely different...

OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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calumnus said:

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Bell's 16 points was the most since his 20 in our ACC opener against Louisville. Getting him back as a confident scorer is huge.

Dort back healthy with an improved Ilic and now even Dut playing well…. I think our best basketball may be ahead of us.

---

Like Big C above, I'm not trying to be a wet blanket and I'm sure that Ilic is giving maximum effort, but I don't understand how a forum that often gives no mercy to a player like Campbell, or sometimes even Dort, continues to be so soft on Milos. In yesterday's game he played 24 minutes, gave us a total of 2 points, 2 rebounds. In addition, on the defensive end he was basically non-existent, with Miami scoring 48 points in the paint. The fact is, if you watch the last play of the game, when Henderson goes up for the final shot, Dut's presence rising up slightly alters Henderson's release. If it had been Milos defending there, I think that shot goes in.

Again, I'm rooting for Milos as a Cal fan, I think he's giving full effort, but for right now it sure likes more often than not he gets a pass here when other players don't. That being said, it was a great victory!

---

With Dort out, MM's choices were Ilic and Dut fouling as little as possible, mixed with some small ball when they are not capable of 40 minutes...So it was a team effort...Instructions I would guess to Ilic, is keep out of foul trouble for if you go out quickly it forces a strategy that is not ideal (small ball or Dut) but can survive for short bursts...He did what he needed to do, and is certainly no Dort, but kept us in the game for our other four on the court to win it. And win it they did....But if Ilic were playing back up minutes to Dort I would look at his stats entirely different...

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? Make some sense. He fouled out.

Fair point. However, we were due for a late game win after missing game winning shots at FSU and Virginia Tech. It goes both ways. We pulled it out against Notre Dame and Miami, but also gave it away is FSU and Virginia Tech. Can't win em all.

glutton said:

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ecb said:

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*** why would we inbound to Dorsey ***

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Because he got open. Would you rather we got a 5 second call turnover?

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Why was Dorsey in there ?

calfanz said:

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glutton said:

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ecb said:

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*** why would we inbound to Dorsey ***

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Because he got open. Would you rather we got a 5 second call turnover?

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Why was Dorsey in there ?

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Who else? I liked the idea. Illic would have been if he wasnt on bench

OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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calumnus said:

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Bell's 16 points was the most since his 20 in our ACC opener against Louisville. Getting him back as a confident scorer is huge.

Dort back healthy with an improved Ilic and now even Dut playing well…. I think our best basketball may be ahead of us.

---

Like Big C above, I'm not trying to be a wet blanket and I'm sure that Ilic is giving maximum effort, but I don't understand how a forum that often gives no mercy to a player like Campbell, or sometimes even Dort, continues to be so soft on Milos. In yesterday's game he played 24 minutes, gave us a total of 2 points, 2 rebounds. In addition, on the defensive end he was basically non-existent, with Miami scoring 48 points in the paint. The fact is, if you watch the last play of the game, when Henderson goes up for the final shot, Dut's presence rising up slightly alters Henderson's release. If it had been Milos defending there, I think that shot goes in.

Again, I'm rooting for Milos as a Cal fan, I think he's giving full effort, but for right now it sure likes more often than not he gets a pass here when other players don't. That being said, it was a great victory!

---

With Dort out, MM's choices were Ilic and Dut fouling as little as possible, mixed with some small ball when they are not capable of 40 minutes...So it was a team effort...Instructions I would guess to Ilic, is keep out of foul trouble for if you go out quickly it forces a strategy that is not ideal (small ball or Dut) but can survive for short bursts...He did what he needed to do, and is certainly no Dort, but kept us in the game for our other four on the court to win it. And win it they did....But if Ilic were playing back up minutes to Dort I would look at his stats entirely different...

---

? Make some sense. He fouled out.

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You must live on stats alone....Ilic kept the team alive on the inside by not fouling out with many increased minutes....He kept out of the type of foul trouble he most always tended to get in and it added tremendously to MM's options. Yes, he eventually fouled out. Was that the salient point to you?

---

I don't live on stats alone. Anyone watching that game could see that our 6-10 center was absolutely nowhere to be found on the defensive end. Here's a statless statement - Miami literally had their way in the paint because Milos brought nothing on the defensive end. I think everyone watching this game on this thread could see it.

Milos "kept us alive in the inside." Really? The fact is we won this game in spite of him. And when people still defend him after that performance it proves my point that more times than not he gets a free pass here.

RedlessWardrobe said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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calumnus said:

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Bell's 16 points was the most since his 20 in our ACC opener against Louisville. Getting him back as a confident scorer is huge.

Dort back healthy with an improved Ilic and now even Dut playing well…. I think our best basketball may be ahead of us.

---

Like Big C above, I'm not trying to be a wet blanket and I'm sure that Ilic is giving maximum effort, but I don't understand how a forum that often gives no mercy to a player like Campbell, or sometimes even Dort, continues to be so soft on Milos. In yesterday's game he played 24 minutes, gave us a total of 2 points, 2 rebounds. In addition, on the defensive end he was basically non-existent, with Miami scoring 48 points in the paint. The fact is, if you watch the last play of the game, when Henderson goes up for the final shot, Dut's presence rising up slightly alters Henderson's release. If it had been Milos defending there, I think that shot goes in.

Again, I'm rooting for Milos as a Cal fan, I think he's giving full effort, but for right now it sure likes more often than not he gets a pass here when other players don't. That being said, it was a great victory!

---

With Dort out, MM's choices were Ilic and Dut fouling as little as possible, mixed with some small ball when they are not capable of 40 minutes...So it was a team effort...Instructions I would guess to Ilic, is keep out of foul trouble for if you go out quickly it forces a strategy that is not ideal (small ball or Dut) but can survive for short bursts...He did what he needed to do, and is certainly no Dort, but kept us in the game for our other four on the court to win it. And win it they did....But if Ilic were playing back up minutes to Dort I would look at his stats entirely different...

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? Make some sense. He fouled out.

---

You must live on stats alone....Ilic kept the team alive on the inside by not fouling out with many increased minutes....He kept out of the type of foul trouble he most always tended to get in and it added tremendously to MM's options. Yes, he eventually fouled out. Was that the salient point to you?

---

I don't live on stats alone. Anyone watching that game could see that our 6-10 center was absolutely nowhere to be found on the defensive end. Here's a statless statement - Miami literally had their way in the paint because Milos brought nothing on the defensive end. I think everyone watching this game on this thread could see it.

Milos "kept us alive in the inside." Really? The fact is we won this game in spite of him. And when people still defend him after that performance it proves my point that more times than not he gets a free pass here.

---

Yes. I don't get what Ilic was trying to accomplish on defense yesterday. Sometimes he was out on the perimeter, which I have to assume was by design (But why? Must be something to do with guarding his man or defending the PNR, but... ). When he was in the paint, he was often right under the basket, in no position to defend anybody or rebound. Los Hurricanos (sp?) had their way with us on the inside.

For you Dut Lovers (hey, I like the guy, too), you should contact the staff or something, because they see those guys every day in practice and have decided (up until now) that he doesn't deserve minutes. Maybe they're not as dumb as I look.

RedlessWardrobe said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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calumnus said:

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Bell's 16 points was the most since his 20 in our ACC opener against Louisville. Getting him back as a confident scorer is huge.

Dort back healthy with an improved Ilic and now even Dut playing well…. I think our best basketball may be ahead of us.

---

Like Big C above, I'm not trying to be a wet blanket and I'm sure that Ilic is giving maximum effort, but I don't understand how a forum that often gives no mercy to a player like Campbell, or sometimes even Dort, continues to be so soft on Milos. In yesterday's game he played 24 minutes, gave us a total of 2 points, 2 rebounds. In addition, on the defensive end he was basically non-existent, with Miami scoring 48 points in the paint. The fact is, if you watch the last play of the game, when Henderson goes up for the final shot, Dut's presence rising up slightly alters Henderson's release. If it had been Milos defending there, I think that shot goes in.

Again, I'm rooting for Milos as a Cal fan, I think he's giving full effort, but for right now it sure likes more often than not he gets a pass here when other players don't. That being said, it was a great victory!

---

With Dort out, MM's choices were Ilic and Dut fouling as little as possible, mixed with some small ball when they are not capable of 40 minutes...So it was a team effort...Instructions I would guess to Ilic, is keep out of foul trouble for if you go out quickly it forces a strategy that is not ideal (small ball or Dut) but can survive for short bursts...He did what he needed to do, and is certainly no Dort, but kept us in the game for our other four on the court to win it. And win it they did....But if Ilic were playing back up minutes to Dort I would look at his stats entirely different...

---

? Make some sense. He fouled out.

---

You must live on stats alone....Ilic kept the team alive on the inside by not fouling out with many increased minutes....He kept out of the type of foul trouble he most always tended to get in and it added tremendously to MM's options. Yes, he eventually fouled out. Was that the salient point to you?

---

I don't live on stats alone. Anyone watching that game could see that our 6-10 center was absolutely nowhere to be found on the defensive end. Here's a statless statement - Miami literally had their way in the paint because Milos brought nothing on the defensive end. I think everyone watching this game on this thread could see it.

Milos "kept us alive in the inside." Really? The fact is we won this game in spite of him. And when people still defend him after that performance it proves my point that more times than not he gets a free pass here.

---

You and I are talking in circles about a player whose game for the most part I do not like. What I am saying about the two backups, but obviously mostly Ilic, is that they kept MM from going to a small line up for many, many minutes...You can see where I have made previous posts questioning whether we have the worst 6-10 players in America...He got beat like a drum as you describe but he afforded MM minutes and the ability to manipulate. Were Dort back he should be down just to give Dort a rest in each half. And Miami's center ate his lunch, but when in there the score stayed close and we stole one at the buzzer...

Illic was wide open from three many times and refused to shoot a shot he can make. Not helpful.

I think he's shown good vision and touch with the back door passing. But it seems like both Florida teams scouted for that and shut that play down. To me, his biggest weakness is that he gets out-rebounded way too often, even when he's in excellent rebound position. Of course many of those situations he should draw an over-the-back foul call, but those only seem to called on Cal players for some reason, especially late in the game....I don't know if there is something that can be coached--in the NBA, there's a huge amount of arm clamping going on for any given rebound--but, if not, then it will always be a pretty major liability. Giving a team three chances to score on any given possession isn't a recipe for success.

Other posters have stated the obvious--Dort is absolutely essential for any sustained run. Dut could come in for occasional productive energy bursts.

At the very least these recent comments on Milos are more objective. Moving forward I'm rooting for him just like all the rest of our players. Would be more effective if he played with more aggressiveness and energy. I'm sure he's trying his best, but a little more movement would certainly help things.

Was Dort suited up for the Florida games?

MiZery said:

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Was Dort suited up for the Florida games?

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No, and he was wearing a knee brace. Why you would wear a knee brace for a thigh issue is beyond me.

Johnfox said:

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BI loves to rip on big men. Everyone ripped on Daws, Sissoko, Dort, and now Milos and Mantas. But everyone back pedals when they leave or get injured.

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It goes back decades. Posters even ripped on Shareef, but especially Kenyon Jones, Francisco Elson, Solomon Hughes, Jamal Sampson, David Paris, Rod Benson, Devon Hardin, Jordan Wilkes, Max Zhang, Richard Solomon, Kingsley Okoroh, Kameron Rooks, Andre Kelly, Lars Thiemann, Fardaws Aimaq, Maddy Sissoko….

calumnus said:

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Johnfox said:

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BI loves to rip on big men. Everyone ripped on Daws, Sissoko, Dort, and now Milos and Mantas. But everyone back pedals when they leave or get injured.

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It goes back decades. Posters even ripped on Shareef, but especially Kenyon Jones, Francisco Elson, Solomon Hughes, Jamal Sampson, David Paris, Rod Benson, Devon Hardin, Jordan Wilkes, Max Zhang, Richard Solomon, Kingsley Okoroh, Kameron Rooks, Andre Kelly, Lars Thiemann, Fardaws Aimaq, Maddy Sissoko….

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I'm guilty of criticizing a few on that list. But bigs tend to get better with time so I was usually wrong.

I also think some fans value scoring over defense and rebounding

Yes scoring might be the single most important thing for a center but I'd take the combo of defense/rebounding if you can't get a dominant scorer, and how many teams have dominate scoring centers?

calumnus said:

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Johnfox said:

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BI loves to rip on big men. Everyone ripped on Daws, Sissoko, Dort, and now Milos and Mantas. But everyone back pedals when they leave or get injured.

---

It goes back decades. Posters even ripped on Shareef, but especially Kenyon Jones, Francisco Elson, Solomon Hughes, Jamal Sampson, David Paris, Rod Benson, Devon Hardin, Jordan Wilkes, Max Zhang, Richard Solomon, Kingsley Okoroh, Kameron Rooks, Andre Kelly, Lars Thiemann, Fardaws Aimaq, Maddy Sissoko….

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stu said:

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calumnus said:

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Johnfox said:

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BI loves to rip on big men. Everyone ripped on Daws, Sissoko, Dort, and now Milos and Mantas. But everyone back pedals when they leave or get injured.

---

It goes back decades. Posters even ripped on Shareef, but especially Kenyon Jones, Francisco Elson, Solomon Hughes, Jamal Sampson, David Paris, Rod Benson, Devon Hardin, Jordan Wilkes, Max Zhang, Richard Solomon, Kingsley Okoroh, Kameron Rooks, Andre Kelly, Lars Thiemann, Fardaws Aimaq, Maddy Sissoko….

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I'm guilty of criticizing a few on that list. But bigs tend to get better with time so I was usually wrong.

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That's a great list… What I find weird is the extreme defensiveness of those BI posters who act shocked when I say that we do not have an ACC-ready big man and that we might play better as a small ball, quick hands defense team. You can still be a Bears fan and have a less than homer opinion about our big man, but this is heresy for some here.
No one is saying it's easy for a program like Cal to get a better-than-mid-tier big, but I know it's not impossible. I point you to another team I root for, the St.Louis Billikens, with Robbie Avila "a.k.a Cream Abdul Jabbar" as their big. Are we really saying we can't do better when the likes of Indiana State and St. Louis are doing it?
Dort and Fardaws are in the same category… great fighting spirit, decent at rebounds but not premium, bad hands that become a liability. Scoring and moves around the basket, not so much. If the big is not even in a conversation about the NBA draft or at least the G-league, then why would we say our big man recruiting is at the high ACC standard we want it to be? That list of Cal bigs, covering decades, has only a few who ever saw an NBA bench.
We have to do better next year.

calumnus said:

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Johnfox said:

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BI loves to rip on big men. Everyone ripped on Daws, Sissoko, Dort, and now Milos and Mantas. But everyone back pedals when they leave or get injured.

---

It goes back decades. Posters even ripped on Shareef, but especially Kenyon Jones, Francisco Elson, Solomon Hughes, Jamal Sampson, David Paris, Rod Benson, Devon Hardin, Jordan Wilkes, Max Zhang, Richard Solomon, Kingsley Okoroh, Kameron Rooks, Andre Kelly, Lars Thiemann, Fardaws Aimaq, Maddy Sissoko….

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You left out Rock Lee and Michael Pitts!

HearstMining said:

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calumnus said:

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Johnfox said:

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BI loves to rip on big men. Everyone ripped on Daws, Sissoko, Dort, and now Milos and Mantas. But everyone back pedals when they leave or get injured.

---

It goes back decades. Posters even ripped on Shareef, but especially Kenyon Jones, Francisco Elson, Solomon Hughes, Jamal Sampson, David Paris, Rod Benson, Devon Hardin, Jordan Wilkes, Max Zhang, Richard Solomon, Kingsley Okoroh, Kameron Rooks, Andre Kelly, Lars Thiemann, Fardaws Aimaq, Maddy Sissoko….

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You left out Rock Lee and Michael Pitts!

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IMHO Rock Lee was a forward forced to play out of position. And how about Robert Thurman?

northbay said:

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Ilic is not a shooter, not a rim protector, and not a finisher but otherwise, I'm not at all surprised that he's had some of the highest ORTG in ACC play on the team per Bart Torvik.

I was planning on watching the 2nd half again and specifically watched for positive plays by Ilic.

15:30 solid off ball screen to free Camden for a catch and shoot 3
13:12 great on ball screen dislodges Donaldson, which causes Reneau to hedge farther than he wants and he fouls Dai Dai
11:01 nice ball screen hedge that pushes the Miami player away from the basket and forces the offense to reset
10:32 finds TT on a nice backdoor pass which leads to free throws
9:27 strong board in traffic and pushes the ball up court by himself
9:18 fights for the oreb and creates a deflection off Miami
6:20 comes to double Henderson (who has Bell on the block), which causes a wild cross court pass that leads to a TO
5:37 nice hedge which forces Donaldson to pick up his dribble
5:30 he then retreats to the paint, stones Reneau's post up and causes him to lose the ball
4:50 finishes an easy dunk created by Pippen

Very few counting stats accrued but lots of key plays that go under the radar.

---

Again, the things listed here appear to be accurate, but if you are going to list the things he did right, wouldn't it be more accurate to also list the things that he did wrong, or failed to do? He had two rebounds in 24 minutes, are we to believe that during that time he never failed to get a rebound, or failed to defend a shot, or was caught out of position? How many points did he allow? Was it more than the two he scored while he was out there?Why weren't they listed? (This is why I believe he gets a pass in this forum.)

This what I mean by ability to play within our offensive and defensive schemes

Mostly not in the box score and often overlooked by fans because they (including me) ball watch

But if you replay a game and focus on one player you can see how a player impacts a game both positively and negatively

Even then we don't know the actions so don't really know if they missed a motion, screen or rotation

northbay said:

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Ilic is not a shooter, not a rim protector, and not a finisher but otherwise, I'm not at all surprised that he's had some of the highest ORTG in ACC play on the team per Bart Torvik.

I was planning on watching the 2nd half again and specifically watched for positive plays by Ilic.

15:30 solid off ball screen to free Camden for a catch and shoot 3
13:12 great on ball screen dislodges Donaldson, which causes Reneau to hedge farther than he wants and he fouls Dai Dai
11:01 nice ball screen hedge that pushes the Miami player away from the basket and forces the offense to reset
10:32 finds TT on a nice backdoor pass which leads to free throws
9:27 strong board in traffic and pushes the ball up court by himself
9:18 fights for the oreb and creates a deflection off Miami
6:20 comes to double Henderson (who has Bell on the block), which causes a wild cross court pass that leads to a TO
5:37 nice hedge which forces Donaldson to pick up his dribble
5:30 he then retreats to the paint, stones Reneau's post up and causes him to lose the ball
4:50 finishes an easy dunk created by Pippen

Very few counting stats accrued but lots of key plays that go under the radar.

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calumnus said:

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Johnfox said:

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BI loves to rip on big men. Everyone ripped on Daws, Sissoko, Dort, and now Milos and Mantas. But everyone back pedals when they leave or get injured.

---

It goes back decades. Posters even ripped on Shareef, but especially Kenyon Jones, Francisco Elson, Solomon Hughes, Jamal Sampson, David Paris, Rod Benson, Devon Hardin, Jordan Wilkes, Max Zhang, Richard Solomon, Kingsley Okoroh, Kameron Rooks, Andre Kelly, Lars Thiemann, Fardaws Aimaq, Maddy Sissoko….

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Well, I never ripped on the late Mark McNamara when, his senior year, he led the Pac 10 in scoring, rebounding and FG%!

Oops, I take that back: He couldn't pass and protect the rim like Bill Walton!

HearstMining said:

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calumnus said:

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Johnfox said:

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BI loves to rip on big men. Everyone ripped on Daws, Sissoko, Dort, and now Milos and Mantas. But everyone back pedals when they leave or get injured.

---

It goes back decades. Posters even ripped on Shareef, but especially Kenyon Jones, Francisco Elson, Solomon Hughes, Jamal Sampson, David Paris, Rod Benson, Devon Hardin, Jordan Wilkes, Max Zhang, Richard Solomon, Kingsley Okoroh, Kameron Rooks, Andre Kelly, Lars Thiemann, Fardaws Aimaq, Maddy Sissoko….

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You left out Rock Lee and Michael Pitts!

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You left out Nick Stone Hands VanDerLaan

stu said:

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HearstMining said:

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calumnus said:

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Johnfox said:

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BI loves to rip on big men. Everyone ripped on Daws, Sissoko, Dort, and now Milos and Mantas. But everyone back pedals when they leave or get injured.

---

It goes back decades. Posters even ripped on Shareef, but especially Kenyon Jones, Francisco Elson, Solomon Hughes, Jamal Sampson, David Paris, Rod Benson, Devon Hardin, Jordan Wilkes, Max Zhang, Richard Solomon, Kingsley Okoroh, Kameron Rooks, Andre Kelly, Lars Thiemann, Fardaws Aimaq, Maddy Sissoko….

---

You left out Rock Lee and Michael Pitts!

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IMHO Rock Lee was a forward forced to play out of position. And how about Robert Thurman?

---

Can't speak to pre-Internet, but I do remember a lot fans at Harmon were critical of Pitts. Certainly fans were happy with McNamera. I was hoping we could have both as "twin towers" and was disappointed Pitts got hurt.

"The Thurminator" was largely a favorite on this board having started out as a walkon (though he had some derision on that score initially), so he had the benefit of low expectations/limited minutes and he only started when Solomon was out with an injury (to the derision of this board).

Guys like Powe, Kamp, Sanders-Frissen, Anderson, Kravish, Rabb, Tamir and Marks were all board favorites, though most of those guys weren't really centers even if sometimes they had to anchor the middle.