The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

1,910,005 Views | 13349 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by sycasey
Aunburdened
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sycasey said:



It would probably save us all a lot of time if you just posted a list of neo-cons you don't support at this point as you retweet anybody who still supports your lost cause war in Ukraine.



sycasey
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Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:



It would probably save us all a lot of time if you just posted a list of neo-cons you don't support at this point as you retweet anybody who still supports your lost cause war in Ukraine.

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.
Aunburdened
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Aunburdened
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Cal88
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Aunburdened said:




Doug Valentine is the author of one of the best books on he Vietnam War, focused on the Phoenix Program. The darker side of the Vietnam War that people like Ken Burns will never address.

Valentine's father was involved with US intelligence, his account on the Phoenix Program is based on insider information, including interviews with the likes of William Colby, former CIA chief.



sycasey
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Aunburdened said:



Cal88
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sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:






The thing with this incident is that the Russians have had several excuses to escalate the war, in response to the terrorist bombings of the theater in Moscow, and before that the restaurant in St. Petersburg. Every time they didn't do much in terms of retaliation, because they felt the war was going well. In this latest case, they might throw a couple of Oreshnik hypersonic missiles on a Ukrainian military HQ in Kiev and call it a day.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.


Do you believe that the Ukrainian sources, western MSM included, have been more forthright in their coverage of this war than the alternative media sources?
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

Do you believe that the Ukrainian sources, western MSM included, have been more forthright in their coverage of this war than the alternative media sources?

I compare what I hear from the MSM, the "alternative" sources, and what I see in front of my own two eyes (Russia rolling tanks towards Kiev) and conclude that Russia is mostly at fault in this war.
bearister
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I don't think you can go too far astray in life if you are skeptical of a news source that is imprinted with Putin's Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.




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Cal88
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bearister said:

I don't think you can go too far astray in life if you are skeptical of a news source that is imprinted with Putin's Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.







The only sources that would somewhat qualify for that label would be Russia Today (RT) and Sputnik, and even there it's far from a given that western pundits going on RT qualify as Putin stenographers.

The propaganda and gaslighting about this war, its reasons for happening, its conduct and evolution have been squarely from the MSM, like the narratives from 2022 and 23 about the Russians running out of weapons, being militarily inept or their economy collapsing. This has been the bread and butter of the MSM for the last 4 years.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

bearister said:

I don't think you can go too far astray in life if you are skeptical of a news source that is imprinted with Putin's Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.







The only sources that would somewhat qualify for that label would be Russia Today (RT) and Sputnik, and even there it's far from a given that western pundits going on RT qualify as Putin stenographers.

No, but if RT keeps bringing them on there's a reason for it. They find it useful to launder those opinions and elevate them, and audience capture is a thing.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

bearister said:

I don't think you can go too far astray in life if you are skeptical of a news source that is imprinted with Putin's Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.







The only sources that would somewhat qualify for that label would be Russia Today (RT) and Sputnik, and even there it's far from a given that western pundits going on RT qualify as Putin stenographers.

No, but if RT keeps bringing them on there's a reason for it. They find it useful to launder those opinions and elevate them, and audience capture is a thing.


RT doesn't have much of an audience, they never were the main driver of alternative news on the Ukraine war.

Sources like Swiss intelligence colonel Jacques Baud, who has recently been debanked and banned from traveling by the EU or Col. Macgregor or Alexandre Robert aka YT History Legends are examples of alternative sources on the Ukraine war that have been pretty accurate on the Ukraine war, and whose content has run almost 180 degrees from the MSM. These sources have nothing to do with RT or Russia, the fact that they don't bull**** 24/7 doesn't make them Russian shills.

sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

bearister said:

I don't think you can go too far astray in life if you are skeptical of a news source that is imprinted with Putin's Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.







The only sources that would somewhat qualify for that label would be Russia Today (RT) and Sputnik, and even there it's far from a given that western pundits going on RT qualify as Putin stenographers.

No, but if RT keeps bringing them on there's a reason for it. They find it useful to launder those opinions and elevate them, and audience capture is a thing.


RT doesn't have much of an audience, they never were the main driver of alternative news on the Ukraine war.

Sources like Swiss intelligence colonel Jacques Baud, who has recently been debanked and banned from traveling by the EU or Col. Macgregor or Alexandre Robert aka YT History Legends are examples of alternative sources on the Ukraine war that have been pretty accurate on the Ukraine war, and whose content has run almost 180 degrees from the MSM. These sources have nothing to do with RT or Russia, the fact that they don't bull**** 24/7 doesn't make them Russian shills.

Sometimes those guys are right, but they are only ever right in one direction, which is pro-Russia. They just have a bias. I don't know exactly how they come by it, but they have it.
Aunburdened
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sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.

bearister
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Is there any reasonable basis for being skeptical of Col. Macgregor's objectivity with regard to his analysis of the war in Ukraine?
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sycasey
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Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.

Cal88
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bearister said:

Is there any reasonable basis for being skeptical of Col. Macgregor's objectivity with regard to his analysis of the war in Ukraine?


4 years into this conflict, we have a good basis for evaluating the quality and veracity of sources on the Ukraine war.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.





Can't think of a single point about this war about which he neocons were right. Their batting rate has got to be well below 10%.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.





Can't think of a single point about this war about which he neocons were right. Their batting rate has got to be well below 10%.

The neocons and the MSM said Russia was preparing to invade Ukraine and they did. Your favorite sources kept saying it was all a CIA psy-op and that Putin would never really invade. Whoops!
movielover
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Cal88 said:

bearister said:

Is there any reasonable basis for being skeptical of Col. Macgregor's objectivity with regard to his analysis of the war in Ukraine?


4 years into this conflict, we have a good basis for evaluating the quality and veracity of sources on the Ukraine war.


MacGregor said Big Ag, NATO, CIA up to their necks in this. Some allege his early predictions were wrong. I only catch him ocassionally now. He seems tilted anti Trump now, some possibly warranted, some not. He claims Trump early on could have threatened, and pulled, all Ukraine funding, to stop the madness. The Deep State wouldn't be happy w that, nor would the Globalists. He doesn't seem happy with the strikes on Iran. President Trump is one of the only major players pushing for peace, everyone else seems hell bent on an unending war while the EU goons play games.

While driving I was listening to a new source who claim the Russians have picked up the land acquisition pace. This allegedly included Zelensy sacrificing a division of men (10,000) for which they claim no strategic reason, and the allegation that Ukrainian troops were collapsing. Could be propoganda, but seems reasonable.
Aunburdened
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sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.



At the point where you start to write sentences like "neocons happen to be right" is a good time to start questioning when your beliefs are wrong. At least for normal people who have values like opposing the war against Iraq.

But who knows, maybe you were pretending all that just to fit into your liberal friends crowds and you were secretly cheering all that stuff on. It would certainly explain your faith in things the government and intelligence services say.
sycasey
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Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.



At the point where you start to write sentences like "neocons happen to be right" is a good time to start questioning when your beliefs are wrong. At least for normal people who have values like opposing the war against Iraq.

Oh trust me, I do question it, just like I questioned Iraq back in the day. I just don't think they're wrong in this case. I can accept when people I don't like are right about a particular subject.

You seem to have problems doing this.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.



At the point where you start to write sentences like "neocons happen to be right" is a good time to start questioning when your beliefs are wrong. At least for normal people who have values like opposing the war against Iraq.

Oh trust me, I do question it, just like I questioned Iraq back in the day. I just don't think they're wrong in this case. I can accept when people I don't like are right about a particular subject.

You seem to have problems doing this.


Do you accept that Mearsheimer was right 11 years ago.

bearister
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Interesting discussion about neocons against the backdrop of the pretextual invasion of Iraq.

The Trump/Bibi connection gets Trump membership in the club.

https://www.la.utexas.edu/users/chenry/usme/2009/whosewar03.pdf

Steve Bannon Compares Trump to Hillary Clinton in Major Diss https://www.mediaite.com/media/news/steve-bannon-compares-trump-to-hillary-clinton-in-stunning-attack/
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside

“I love Cal deeply, by the way, what are the directions to The Portal from Sproul Plaza?”
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.



At the point where you start to write sentences like "neocons happen to be right" is a good time to start questioning when your beliefs are wrong. At least for normal people who have values like opposing the war against Iraq.

Oh trust me, I do question it, just like I questioned Iraq back in the day. I just don't think they're wrong in this case. I can accept when people I don't like are right about a particular subject.

You seem to have problems doing this.


Do you accept that Mearsheimer was right 11 years ago.



He is right about some things, in a broad sense. Some of his criticism of American and/or Western policy towards Ukraine is fair.

But he also said that Putin "did not have any intention of invading Ukraine" about a week before they did so. See comments here starting at around 1:50:



And the thing is that the rest of his analysis here is basically right! He says that if Putin tried to take Ukraine and topple the whole government, he would then be an occupier and it would be a terrible use of resources and that there would be huge resistance. Correct! That's happening now! The resistance is even stronger than he probably assumed!

Yet these days he'd never make that argument; it's always back around to how the West was at fault. Personally, I think that Putin is at fault for making a stupid choice to invade Ukraine (not just the Donbas, Kiev also), even if you can argue that he was provoked into it. To me Mearsheimer is an example of a guy who had some insights about "Great Power Politics" or whatever, but got trapped in one mode of thinking long ago and refused to come out of it even when his own theories were challenged by reality.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.



At the point where you start to write sentences like "neocons happen to be right" is a good time to start questioning when your beliefs are wrong. At least for normal people who have values like opposing the war against Iraq.

Oh trust me, I do question it, just like I questioned Iraq back in the day. I just don't think they're wrong in this case. I can accept when people I don't like are right about a particular subject.

You seem to have problems doing this.


Do you accept that Mearsheimer was right 11 years ago.



He is right about some things, in a broad sense. Some of his criticism of American and/or Western policy towards Ukraine is fair.

But he also said that Putin "did not have any intention of invading Ukraine" about a week before they did so. See comments here starting at around 1:50:





You're discrediting your own thesis here, Mearsheimer nailed it!

He clearly stated at the 1:50 mark that Putin had no intention of invading Ukraine, but "he nevertheless understood that there might be circumstances under which that might be necessary where Russians would intervene if Ukraine attacked the Russian-supported forces in the Donbas, he would come to their assistance, and that would probably involve a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine".



Quote:

Quote:

And the thing is that the rest of his analysis here is basically right! He says that if Putin tried to take Ukraine and topple the whole government, he would then be an occupier and it would be a terrible use of resources and that there would be huge resistance. Correct! That's happening now! The resistance is even stronger than he probably assumed!




Russia is only going to annex the Russian third of Ukraine, where the majority supports Russia, mostly the red parts on that map below.



In the territories that Russia has already annexed, there is no significant resistance, guerilla action, most people there support Russia. In the Donbas front, locals have been informing the Russians on Ukrainian military positions and assets.

The same thing happened in Crimea, where locals hate the Kyiv regime :




What they will do with the remainder is to destroy their military power and force them to surrender unconditionally. Ukraine will end up as a demolished landlocked failed state half the size it was, with a large buffer zone between the western half and the annexed Russian parts in the east and south.

The military resistance Russia has been facing now is a combination of hapless forced conscripts and a cadre of hardcore nationalists from Galicia (the part in dark blue in the above map), the type of ideologically-driven nationalists who have gone on their annual torchlight march honoring the Ukrainian commander of the biggest SS division in WW2, Stepan Bandera. This is from yesterday, in Lviv (western Ukraine), for the annual procession on Bandera's birthday:




That resistance is already being strained, with more than a half million Ukrainian men already KIAs. Barring any peace treaties, Russia will press on then annex the south and the key port of Odessa, which is heavily pro-Russian, and where people are tired of being deprived of their identity, conscripted by force and getting bullied simply for speaking their native language - Odessa has been a Russian city for nearly 3 centuries:



Quote:

Yet these days he'd never make that argument; it's always back around to how the West was at fault. Personally, I think that Putin is at fault for making a stupid choice to invade Ukraine (not just the Donbas, Kiev also), even if you can argue that he was provoked into it. To me Mearsheimer is an example of a guy who had some insights about "Great Power Politics" or whatever, but got trapped in one mode of thinking long ago and refused to come out of it even when his own theories were challenged by reality.


We, the West, or our leaders and military planners to be more precise, knew exactly what we were doing here, using Ukraine as a battering ram against Russia. Mearsheimer summarized it beautifully above in his landmark speech 11 years ago, "leading Ukraine down the primrose path", and he is also right about the consequences, Ukraine is getting wrecked.




Cal88
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When the Russians talk of denazifying Ukraine, this is what they mean, an elementary school class of Ukrainian children being indoctrinated in the cult of Bandera :




The Russians will never accept a Ukraine taking on the identity of the 1930s OUN/UPA literal nazis, an ideology built around the cult of Bandera that considers the Russians as subhuman and their culture an alien one that has to be wiped out.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.



At the point where you start to write sentences like "neocons happen to be right" is a good time to start questioning when your beliefs are wrong. At least for normal people who have values like opposing the war against Iraq.

Oh trust me, I do question it, just like I questioned Iraq back in the day. I just don't think they're wrong in this case. I can accept when people I don't like are right about a particular subject.

You seem to have problems doing this.


Do you accept that Mearsheimer was right 11 years ago.



He is right about some things, in a broad sense. Some of his criticism of American and/or Western policy towards Ukraine is fair.

But he also said that Putin "did not have any intention of invading Ukraine" about a week before they did so. See comments here starting at around 1:50:





You're discrediting your own thesis here, Mearsheimer nailed it!

He clearly stated at the 1:50 mark that Putin had no intention of invading Ukraine, but "he nevertheless understood that there might be circumstances under which that might be necessary where Russians would intervene if Ukraine attacked the Russian-supported forces in the Donbas, he would come to their assistance, and that would probably involve a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine".

Except that it wasn't just a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine. That was the fallback position. The original invasion was attempting to topple the government in Kiev. That failed, and was not a thing Mearsheimer thought Putin would do. He was wrong about that.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.



At the point where you start to write sentences like "neocons happen to be right" is a good time to start questioning when your beliefs are wrong. At least for normal people who have values like opposing the war against Iraq.

Oh trust me, I do question it, just like I questioned Iraq back in the day. I just don't think they're wrong in this case. I can accept when people I don't like are right about a particular subject.

You seem to have problems doing this.


Do you accept that Mearsheimer was right 11 years ago.



He is right about some things, in a broad sense. Some of his criticism of American and/or Western policy towards Ukraine is fair.

But he also said that Putin "did not have any intention of invading Ukraine" about a week before they did so. See comments here starting at around 1:50:





You're discrediting your own thesis here, Mearsheimer nailed it!

He clearly stated at the 1:50 mark that Putin had no intention of invading Ukraine, but "he nevertheless understood that there might be circumstances under which that might be necessary where Russians would intervene if Ukraine attacked the Russian-supported forces in the Donbas, he would come to their assistance, and that would probably involve a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine".

Except that it wasn't just a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine. That was the fallback position. The original invasion was attempting to topple the government in Kiev. That failed, and was not a thing Mearsheimer thought Putin would do. He was wrong about that.


Tedious nitpicking, even by your own standards.
Eastern Oregon Bear
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movielover said:

Russian troops moving more quickly now, Ukraine collapsing?

You've been saying this repeatedly for the last 3+ years. Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

That said, it probably will happen (broken clock twice a day etc.) and you will do your victory dance.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.



At the point where you start to write sentences like "neocons happen to be right" is a good time to start questioning when your beliefs are wrong. At least for normal people who have values like opposing the war against Iraq.

Oh trust me, I do question it, just like I questioned Iraq back in the day. I just don't think they're wrong in this case. I can accept when people I don't like are right about a particular subject.

You seem to have problems doing this.


Do you accept that Mearsheimer was right 11 years ago.



He is right about some things, in a broad sense. Some of his criticism of American and/or Western policy towards Ukraine is fair.

But he also said that Putin "did not have any intention of invading Ukraine" about a week before they did so. See comments here starting at around 1:50:





You're discrediting your own thesis here, Mearsheimer nailed it!

He clearly stated at the 1:50 mark that Putin had no intention of invading Ukraine, but "he nevertheless understood that there might be circumstances under which that might be necessary where Russians would intervene if Ukraine attacked the Russian-supported forces in the Donbas, he would come to their assistance, and that would probably involve a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine".

Except that it wasn't just a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine. That was the fallback position. The original invasion was attempting to topple the government in Kiev. That failed, and was not a thing Mearsheimer thought Putin would do. He was wrong about that.


Tedious nitpicking, even by your own standards.

No, because it speaks to Putin's motivations. He doesn't just want some territory in the east. He wants all of Ukraine. Either for Russia to absorb it or (more likely) for it to be a compliant satellite a la Belarus. This is a regime change war. Unless you can understand that these are Putin's aims there will be no understanding the war.





Hey this guy is pretty sharp about this whole topic in general! And he was much more correct about what would happen than Mearsheimer was . . . before the war started, he said that Russia would invade and also that it wouldn't go well for them. How long are they into this "special military operation" again?
oski003
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.



At the point where you start to write sentences like "neocons happen to be right" is a good time to start questioning when your beliefs are wrong. At least for normal people who have values like opposing the war against Iraq.

Oh trust me, I do question it, just like I questioned Iraq back in the day. I just don't think they're wrong in this case. I can accept when people I don't like are right about a particular subject.

You seem to have problems doing this.


Do you accept that Mearsheimer was right 11 years ago.



He is right about some things, in a broad sense. Some of his criticism of American and/or Western policy towards Ukraine is fair.

But he also said that Putin "did not have any intention of invading Ukraine" about a week before they did so. See comments here starting at around 1:50:





You're discrediting your own thesis here, Mearsheimer nailed it!

He clearly stated at the 1:50 mark that Putin had no intention of invading Ukraine, but "he nevertheless understood that there might be circumstances under which that might be necessary where Russians would intervene if Ukraine attacked the Russian-supported forces in the Donbas, he would come to their assistance, and that would probably involve a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine".

Except that it wasn't just a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine. That was the fallback position. The original invasion was attempting to topple the government in Kiev. That failed, and was not a thing Mearsheimer thought Putin would do. He was wrong about that.


Tedious nitpicking, even by your own standards.

No, because it speaks to Putin's motivations. He doesn't just want some territory in the east. He wants all of Ukraine. Either for Russia to absorb it or (more likely) for it to be a compliant satellite a la Belarus. This is a regime change war. Unless you can understand that these are Putin's aims there will be no understanding the war.





Hey this guy is pretty sharp about this whole topic in general! And he was much more correct about what would happen than Mearsheimer was . . . before the war started, he said that Russia would invade and also that it wouldn't go well for them. How long are they into this "special military operation" again?


It is hard for Russia to simply hire Nazis for a regime change because the CIA already did that.
sycasey
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oski003 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.



At the point where you start to write sentences like "neocons happen to be right" is a good time to start questioning when your beliefs are wrong. At least for normal people who have values like opposing the war against Iraq.

Oh trust me, I do question it, just like I questioned Iraq back in the day. I just don't think they're wrong in this case. I can accept when people I don't like are right about a particular subject.

You seem to have problems doing this.


Do you accept that Mearsheimer was right 11 years ago.



He is right about some things, in a broad sense. Some of his criticism of American and/or Western policy towards Ukraine is fair.

But he also said that Putin "did not have any intention of invading Ukraine" about a week before they did so. See comments here starting at around 1:50:





You're discrediting your own thesis here, Mearsheimer nailed it!

He clearly stated at the 1:50 mark that Putin had no intention of invading Ukraine, but "he nevertheless understood that there might be circumstances under which that might be necessary where Russians would intervene if Ukraine attacked the Russian-supported forces in the Donbas, he would come to their assistance, and that would probably involve a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine".

Except that it wasn't just a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine. That was the fallback position. The original invasion was attempting to topple the government in Kiev. That failed, and was not a thing Mearsheimer thought Putin would do. He was wrong about that.


Tedious nitpicking, even by your own standards.

No, because it speaks to Putin's motivations. He doesn't just want some territory in the east. He wants all of Ukraine. Either for Russia to absorb it or (more likely) for it to be a compliant satellite a la Belarus. This is a regime change war. Unless you can understand that these are Putin's aims there will be no understanding the war.





Hey this guy is pretty sharp about this whole topic in general! And he was much more correct about what would happen than Mearsheimer was . . . before the war started, he said that Russia would invade and also that it wouldn't go well for them. How long are they into this "special military operation" again?


It is hard for Russia to simply hire Nazis for a regime change because the CIA already did that.

I don't believe this is true, but I've given up on trying to convince you people of that.
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:

sycasey said:

Aunburdened said:





Assistant secretary of state under George W. Bush, who conducted the previous fake U.S. regime change war.



Quote:

I can't help it if the neocons happen to be right about Russia in this case while you morons lap up everything Putin wants you to believe. Just how it goes sometimes.



At the point where you start to write sentences like "neocons happen to be right" is a good time to start questioning when your beliefs are wrong. At least for normal people who have values like opposing the war against Iraq.

Oh trust me, I do question it, just like I questioned Iraq back in the day. I just don't think they're wrong in this case. I can accept when people I don't like are right about a particular subject.

You seem to have problems doing this.


Do you accept that Mearsheimer was right 11 years ago.



He is right about some things, in a broad sense. Some of his criticism of American and/or Western policy towards Ukraine is fair.

But he also said that Putin "did not have any intention of invading Ukraine" about a week before they did so. See comments here starting at around 1:50:





You're discrediting your own thesis here, Mearsheimer nailed it!

He clearly stated at the 1:50 mark that Putin had no intention of invading Ukraine, but "he nevertheless understood that there might be circumstances under which that might be necessary where Russians would intervene if Ukraine attacked the Russian-supported forces in the Donbas, he would come to their assistance, and that would probably involve a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine".

Except that it wasn't just a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine. That was the fallback position. The original invasion was attempting to topple the government in Kiev. That failed, and was not a thing Mearsheimer thought Putin would do. He was wrong about that.


Tedious nitpicking, even by your own standards.

No, because it speaks to Putin's motivations. He doesn't just want some territory in the east. He wants all of Ukraine. Either for Russia to absorb it or (more likely) for it to be a compliant satellite a la Belarus. This is a regime change war. Unless you can understand that these are Putin's aims there will be no understanding the war.





Hey this guy is pretty sharp about this whole topic in general! And he was much more correct about what would happen than Mearsheimer was . . . before the war started, he said that Russia would invade and also that it wouldn't go well for them. How long are they into this "special military operation" again?


It is hard for Russia to simply hire Nazis for a regime change because the CIA already did that.

I don't believe this is true, but I've given up on trying to convince you people of that.


I do believe this is true, and I haven't given up on trying to convince you of that.
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Eastern Oregon Bear said:

movielover said:

Russian troops moving more quickly now, Ukraine collapsing?

You've been saying this repeatedly for the last 3+ years. Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

That said, it probably will happen (broken clock twice a day etc.) and you will do your victory dance.


It could happen this year, or within 2-3 years at the most, depending on how aggressive the Russians tactics are, and how long NATO can continue propping up Ukraine. The dam will break when just one of these items happens:

1-Ukraine runs out of troops
2-Ukraine runs out of weapons
3-Ukraine runs out of money, and the economy collapses
4-Ukrainian morale collapses

1 or 4 are likely to happen before 2 or 3.

The tragic aspect here is the futility of this exercise, there is no doubt about the military outcome, it's just a matter of how many more Ukrainian soldiers have to die in addition to the 1.5+ million already gone.
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