Unit2Sucks said:

---

Most of the criticism of Biden assumes a false choice. Biden didn't really have an opportunity to string this out or re-cut the deal and still end the occupation. He had a choice between re-engaging in hostilities or getting out now. Either way he was going to be criticized.

The problem was that Trump negotiated a Trumpian deal. He ignored his advisors and all prudence and made one of the worst deals that the US has ever made but thought it was a good deal. If history is any indication we will later find out that there was something in it for Trump personally.

So Biden either had to unwind the deal, send more Troops in and risk further American lives or continue with this quick withdrawal. I would have liked to have seen him get more of our people out including our Afghan allies, but the latter was made more difficult by Trump nuking the state department and Republicans making it harder to grant visas to Afghans.

Trump and Republicans tied his shoes together and then criticized him for tripping.

---

We need a president that is capable of retying his shoes!

If all of this is true, why couldn't the administration given ANY indication of the true nature of the situation in Afghanistan? Hmmm......

oski003 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Most of the criticism of Biden assumes a false choice. Biden didn't really have an opportunity to string this out or re-cut the deal and still end the occupation. He had a choice between re-engaging in hostilities or getting out now. Either way he was going to be criticized.

The problem was that Trump negotiated a Trumpian deal. He ignored his advisors and all prudence and made one of the worst deals that the US has ever made but thought it was a good deal. If history is any indication we will later find out that there was something in it for Trump personally.

So Biden either had to unwind the deal, send more Troops in and risk further American lives or continue with this quick withdrawal. I would have liked to have seen him get more of our people out including our Afghan allies, but the latter was made more difficult by Trump nuking the state department and Republicans making it harder to grant visas to Afghans.

Trump and Republicans tied his shoes together and then criticized him for tripping.

---

We need a president that is capable of retying his shoes!

If all of this is true, why couldn't the administration given ANY indication of the true nature of the situation in Afghanistan? Hmmm......

---

Everyone knows how to do that - Bush, Obama and Trump continued the war. Biden recognized that ending the occupation, even with the risks known and unknown, was better than continuing the war. He was going to face criticism either way.

I don't have a problem with all of the criticism but I do have a problem with people who believe there were false choices available. It seems the choice was between a botched withdrawal or a continuation (really an escalation) of a pointless and costly war.

We can certainly quibble about missteps but not recognizing the genuine choices available is BS.

okaydo said:

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BearGoggles said:

---

It is astounding to me that some of the lefties in this thread can't help but point to Trump.

ALL presidents inherit problems from their predecessors. Trump inherited a bad Iran deal and N. Korea, not to mention an aggressive China that Obama had no appetite to confront. This is not a defense of how Trump dealt with those issues. For purposes of this discussion, it is irrelevant. It is merely to point out that all presidents are faced with these issues and are responsible for how they act once they take office.

Upon taking office, Biden reversed innumerable Trump policies and agreements (as Trump did when he exited the Iran deal and trans pacific agreement). He isn't shy about it. If Biden didn't like the deal Trump cut with the Taliban, he could have exited it. Trump's deal (whatever you think of it) had conditions that were not met - Biden could have revoked it or repudiated it. Even the AP says that.

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-middle-east-taliban-doha-e6f48507848aef2ee849154604aa11be

The reality is that Biden had no appetite to revoke the deal and stay in Afghanistan because he wanted to leave. He made an affirmative choice to leave - it had almost nothing to do with Trump. And, for purposes of this discussion, the merits of Biden's choice are a different discussion. But pinning this on Trump and his agreement is both dishonest and absurd - read the AP article I linked to.

Having decided to leave, Biden is 1000% responsible for how the exit occurred. And the damage of his lie (that the taliban would not take over) is that it prevented US civilians, contractors, allies and friendly Afghanis from preparing for a timely exit. Those defending or rationalizing the lie (Sycasey) ignore this fact. People will die because of that lie that wouldn't have otherwise.

There was no reason to close Bagram. There was no reason to discontinue air support for the Afghan army. It is a bit off topic, but the US spent 20 years training the Afghan army to fight like we do - with massive air support and intelligence gathering. Then we took that away and wonder why the Afghans couldn't fight?

Biden has botched this beyond belief. His behavior is inexplicable - not coordinating with our closest allies, not listening to the intelligence he was given (or ignoring and lying about it), allowing the Taliban to obtain possession of all of the military equipment, not calling Boris Johnson back for 36 hours in the midst of the crisis, etc. Withdrawing troops before evacuating citizens.

And most shamefully, his administrations has refused to unequivocally state they will protect all US citizens in Afghanistan. That is truly unprecedented and an abrogation of Biden's most basic duty.

---

98 days ago...
https://af.usembassy.gov/security-alert-may-15-2021/

---

That is from May. And then in July, despite intelligence to the contrary, Biden insisted Kabul would not be overrun, inducing people to remain.

https://twitter.com/Indsamachar/status/1426894630629429250?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1426894630629429250%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fclip-biden-saying-people-wont-lifted-off-embassy-roof-afghanistan-resurfaces-just-that-happens-1619517

sycasey said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

Those defending or rationalizing the lie (Sycasey) ignore this fact.

---

Don't put words in my mouth. I was quite clear that I didn't like the lying about what would happen after we pulled out of Afghanistan, but I do like that we're leaving.

---

To paraphrase your position: I don't like the lie, but I like that the lie facilitated the result I want. So that lie is less bad than Trump's lies

Whether you choose to see it or not, that's a rationalization if not a justification.

okaydo said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

It is astounding to me that some of the lefties in this thread can't help but point to Trump.

ALL presidents inherit problems from their predecessors. Trump inherited a bad Iran deal and N. Korea, not to mention an aggressive China that Obama had no appetite to confront. This is not a defense of how Trump dealt with those issues. For purposes of this discussion, it is irrelevant. It is merely to point out that all presidents are faced with these issues and are responsible for how they act once they take office.

Upon taking office, Biden reversed innumerable Trump policies and agreements (as Trump did when he exited the Iran deal and trans pacific agreement). He isn't shy about it. If Biden didn't like the deal Trump cut with the Taliban, he could have exited it. Trump's deal (whatever you think of it) had conditions that were not met - Biden could have revoked it or repudiated it. Even the AP says that.

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-middle-east-taliban-doha-e6f48507848aef2ee849154604aa11be

The reality is that Biden had no appetite to revoke the deal and stay in Afghanistan because he wanted to leave. He made an affirmative choice to leave - it had almost nothing to do with Trump. And, for purposes of this discussion, the merits of Biden's choice are a different discussion. But pinning this on Trump and his agreement is both dishonest and absurd - read the AP article I linked to.

Having decided to leave, Biden is 1000% responsible for how the exit occurred. And the damage of his lie (that the taliban would not take over) is that it prevented US civilians, contractors, allies and friendly Afghanis from preparing for a timely exit. Those defending or rationalizing the lie (Sycasey) ignore this fact. People will die because of that lie that wouldn't have otherwise.

There was no reason to close Bagram. There was no reason to discontinue air support for the Afghan army. It is a bit off topic, but the US spent 20 years training the Afghan army to fight like we do - with massive air support and intelligence gathering. Then we took that away and wonder why the Afghans couldn't fight?

Biden has botched this beyond belief. His behavior is inexplicable - not coordinating with our closest allies, not listening to the intelligence he was given (or ignoring and lying about it), allowing the Taliban to obtain possession of all of the military equipment, not calling Boris Johnson back for 36 hours in the midst of the crisis, etc. Withdrawing troops before evacuating citizens.

And most shamefully, his administrations has refused to unequivocally state they will protect all US citizens in Afghanistan. That is truly unprecedented and an abrogation of Biden's most basic duty.

---

I don't know, man. Trump's Doha agreement specifically states abandoning the U.S. bases and withdrawing all "supporting services personnel."

---

Why not post the full agreement? The article I linked to specifically noted and described that these commitments were conditioned upon the Taliban doing certain things they ultimately didn't do. You're just being dishonest in posting only part of the agreement.

And to the larger point, Biden could have repudiated the agreement if he didn't like it. Just like Biden did on a variety of other Trump agreements/policies and just like Trump did on the Iran deal.

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Most of the criticism of Biden assumes a false choice. Biden didn't really have an opportunity to string this out or re-cut the deal and still end the occupation. He had a choice between re-engaging in hostilities or getting out now. Either way he was going to be criticized.

The problem was that Trump negotiated a Trumpian deal. He ignored his advisors and all prudence and made one of the worst deals that the US has ever made but thought it was a good deal. If history is any indication we will later find out that there was something in it for Trump personally.

So Biden either had to unwind the deal, send more Troops in and risk further American lives or continue with this quick withdrawal. I would have liked to have seen him get more of our people out including our Afghan allies, but the latter was made more difficult by Trump nuking the state department and Republicans making it harder to grant visas to Afghans.

Trump and Republicans tied his shoes together and then criticized him for tripping.

---

I think the bolded is a fair point. Trump's agreement certainly limited Biden's options. Just like the Iran agreement (and lots of other things Obama did) limited Trump's options. But the point is, Biden had options. And he certainly had the ability to manage the withdrawal better. He owns this. He has been in office for 7+ months and had a transition before that. More than enough time to plan a withdrawal.

And its rather funny you're pointing out that Trump didn't follow his advisors. Biden did and is doing exactly that, not to mention ignoring intelligence warnings (and possibly lying about it).

I'm curious - since you appear to support the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan (unless I'm mistaken), how is Trump's deal one of the worst ever? It is not even as bad as the Iran deal where the US literally gave cash to terrorists and paid ransom money, all without obtaining any long term commitments. Not to mention a lot of other deals the US has made.

Anarchistbear said:

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This whole thing has been 20 years of bipartisan grift, incompetence lies and self delusion. Bush went in without a plan; Obama sustained it incompetently. Trump started to get us out with an incompetent plan and Biden sustained it incompetently. Two Democrats, two Republican- one each waging war and finally ending war. Credit - if any- goes to Trump and Biden.

And what is going on at Kabul airport is a natural result of all this and pales compared to all the suffering the Afghans have endured during this useless occupation

---

20 years of incompetence, lies, delusion, and grift - yes.

But if you think the Afghans have endured suffering during the "occupation", then I have news for you. Maybe you should look at the suffering they endured under the Taliban prior to 9/11 (during which time a civil war was raging) and consider what is coming under reinstated Taliban rule.

BearGoggles said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

This whole thing has been 20 years of bipartisan grift, incompetence lies and self delusion. Bush went in without a plan; Obama sustained it incompetently. Trump started to get us out with an incompetent plan and Biden sustained it incompetently. Two Democrats, two Republican- one each waging war and finally ending war. Credit - if any- goes to Trump and Biden.

And what is going on at Kabul airport is a natural result of all this and pales compared to all the suffering the Afghans have endured during this useless occupation

---

20 years of incompetence, lies, delusion, and grift - yes.

But if you think the Afghans have endured suffering during the "occupation", then I have news for you. Maybe you should look at the suffering they endured under the Taliban prior to 9/11 (during which time a civil war was raging) and consider what is coming under reinstated Taliban rule.

---

Or the suffering during the Soviet occupation. Or the war between the America backed mujahadeen,many foreigners, and the Soviets

They are used to suffering which will continue but let them deal with it.

Taliban can murder as many people as they want. But if they keep trolling Biden like this they’re gonna get kicked off of social media. https://t.co/UY0ZvpUUcw

— Jesse Kelly (@JesseKellyDC) August 21, 2021

BearGoggles said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Most of the criticism of Biden assumes a false choice. Biden didn't really have an opportunity to string this out or re-cut the deal and still end the occupation. He had a choice between re-engaging in hostilities or getting out now. Either way he was going to be criticized.

The problem was that Trump negotiated a Trumpian deal. He ignored his advisors and all prudence and made one of the worst deals that the US has ever made but thought it was a good deal. If history is any indication we will later find out that there was something in it for Trump personally.

So Biden either had to unwind the deal, send more Troops in and risk further American lives or continue with this quick withdrawal. I would have liked to have seen him get more of our people out including our Afghan allies, but the latter was made more difficult by Trump nuking the state department and Republicans making it harder to grant visas to Afghans.

Trump and Republicans tied his shoes together and then criticized him for tripping.

---

I think the bolded is a fair point. Trump's agreement certainly limited Biden's options. Just like the Iran agreement (and lots of other things Obama did) limited Trump's options. But the point is, Biden had options. And he certainly had the ability to manage the withdrawal better. He owns this. He has been in office for 7+ months and had a transition before that. More than enough time to plan a withdrawal.

And its rather funny you're pointing out that Trump didn't follow his advisors. Biden did and is doing exactly that, not to mention ignoring intelligence warnings (and possibly lying about it).

I'm curious - since you appear to support the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan (unless I'm mistaken), how is Trump's deal one of the worst ever? It is not even as bad as the Iran deal where the US literally gave cash to terrorists and paid ransom money, all without obtaining any long term commitments. Not to mention a lot of other deals the US has made.

---

See here from this very thread: https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/103055/replies/1901936

You are right that Biden could have acted differently and we would probably be at war right now. Would you support that? There was never going to be a dream exit after Trump's horrible deal.

Unit2Sucks said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Most of the criticism of Biden assumes a false choice. Biden didn't really have an opportunity to string this out or re-cut the deal and still end the occupation. He had a choice between re-engaging in hostilities or getting out now. Either way he was going to be criticized.

The problem was that Trump negotiated a Trumpian deal. He ignored his advisors and all prudence and made one of the worst deals that the US has ever made but thought it was a good deal. If history is any indication we will later find out that there was something in it for Trump personally.

So Biden either had to unwind the deal, send more Troops in and risk further American lives or continue with this quick withdrawal. I would have liked to have seen him get more of our people out including our Afghan allies, but the latter was made more difficult by Trump nuking the state department and Republicans making it harder to grant visas to Afghans.

Trump and Republicans tied his shoes together and then criticized him for tripping.

---

I think the bolded is a fair point. Trump's agreement certainly limited Biden's options. Just like the Iran agreement (and lots of other things Obama did) limited Trump's options. But the point is, Biden had options. And he certainly had the ability to manage the withdrawal better. He owns this. He has been in office for 7+ months and had a transition before that. More than enough time to plan a withdrawal.

And its rather funny you're pointing out that Trump didn't follow his advisors. Biden did and is doing exactly that, not to mention ignoring intelligence warnings (and possibly lying about it).

I'm curious - since you appear to support the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan (unless I'm mistaken), how is Trump's deal one of the worst ever? It is not even as bad as the Iran deal where the US literally gave cash to terrorists and paid ransom money, all without obtaining any long term commitments. Not to mention a lot of other deals the US has made.

---

See here from this very thread: https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/103055/replies/1901936

You are right that Biden could have acted differently and we would probably be at war right now. Would you support that? There was never going to be a dream exit after Trump's horrible deal.

---

At war? With who? That's just silly. The US troops were already at a minimum level and not in the theatre of battle.

1. Announce indefinite delay in withdrawal due to Taliban non-compliance.

2.Increase troops for security purposes. Continue providing air support and intelligence.

3. Wait until winter when the fighting stops. Announce withdrawal (assuming that is what Biden in fact wants to do).

4. Evacuate non-essential civilian personnel and Afghan partners.

5.. Remove or destroy excess/high value military equipment. Develop contingency plan to destroy remaining.

6. Withdraw troops at the end of the winter fighting hiatus. Consider destroying Embassy and Bagram if/when the Taliban get close.

7. Continue providing intelligence and perhaps air support through advisors.

This is not brain science. The fact that Biden withdrew troops first is just inexplicable and unexcusable.

BearGoggles said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Most of the criticism of Biden assumes a false choice. Biden didn't really have an opportunity to string this out or re-cut the deal and still end the occupation. He had a choice between re-engaging in hostilities or getting out now. Either way he was going to be criticized.

The problem was that Trump negotiated a Trumpian deal. He ignored his advisors and all prudence and made one of the worst deals that the US has ever made but thought it was a good deal. If history is any indication we will later find out that there was something in it for Trump personally.

So Biden either had to unwind the deal, send more Troops in and risk further American lives or continue with this quick withdrawal. I would have liked to have seen him get more of our people out including our Afghan allies, but the latter was made more difficult by Trump nuking the state department and Republicans making it harder to grant visas to Afghans.

Trump and Republicans tied his shoes together and then criticized him for tripping.

---

I think the bolded is a fair point. Trump's agreement certainly limited Biden's options. Just like the Iran agreement (and lots of other things Obama did) limited Trump's options. But the point is, Biden had options. And he certainly had the ability to manage the withdrawal better. He owns this. He has been in office for 7+ months and had a transition before that. More than enough time to plan a withdrawal.

And its rather funny you're pointing out that Trump didn't follow his advisors. Biden did and is doing exactly that, not to mention ignoring intelligence warnings (and possibly lying about it).

I'm curious - since you appear to support the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan (unless I'm mistaken), how is Trump's deal one of the worst ever? It is not even as bad as the Iran deal where the US literally gave cash to terrorists and paid ransom money, all without obtaining any long term commitments. Not to mention a lot of other deals the US has made.

---

See here from this very thread: https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/103055/replies/1901936

You are right that Biden could have acted differently and we would probably be at war right now. Would you support that? There was never going to be a dream exit after Trump's horrible deal.

---

At war? With who? That's just silly. The US troops were already at a minimum level and not in the theatre of battle.

1. Announce indefinite delay in withdrawal due to Taliban non-compliance.

2.Increase troops for security purposes. Continue providing air support and intelligence.

3. Wait until winter when the fighting stops. Announce withdrawal (assuming that is what Biden in fact wants to do).

4. Evacuate non-essential civilian personnel and Afghan partners.

5.. Remove or destroy excess/high value military equipment. Develop contingency plan to destroy remaining.

6. Withdraw troops at the end of the winter fighting hiatus. Consider destroying Embassy and Bagram if/when the Taliban get close.

7. Continue providing intelligence and perhaps air support through advisors.

This is not brain science. The fact that Biden withdrew troops first is just inexplicable and unexcusable.

---

Dude, have you been paying attention? The point is that the Taliban were not attacking because of Trump's agreement to leave quickly. If they see us going back on those terms they could have attacked again. Then we would be back in active combat.

It that certain? No. But it's not a crazy assumption to think they might. Any suggestions that Biden should have waited longer or sent more troops in need to account for that possibility.

sycasey said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Most of the criticism of Biden assumes a false choice. Biden didn't really have an opportunity to string this out or re-cut the deal and still end the occupation. He had a choice between re-engaging in hostilities or getting out now. Either way he was going to be criticized.

The problem was that Trump negotiated a Trumpian deal. He ignored his advisors and all prudence and made one of the worst deals that the US has ever made but thought it was a good deal. If history is any indication we will later find out that there was something in it for Trump personally.

So Biden either had to unwind the deal, send more Troops in and risk further American lives or continue with this quick withdrawal. I would have liked to have seen him get more of our people out including our Afghan allies, but the latter was made more difficult by Trump nuking the state department and Republicans making it harder to grant visas to Afghans.

Trump and Republicans tied his shoes together and then criticized him for tripping.

---

I think the bolded is a fair point. Trump's agreement certainly limited Biden's options. Just like the Iran agreement (and lots of other things Obama did) limited Trump's options. But the point is, Biden had options. And he certainly had the ability to manage the withdrawal better. He owns this. He has been in office for 7+ months and had a transition before that. More than enough time to plan a withdrawal.

And its rather funny you're pointing out that Trump didn't follow his advisors. Biden did and is doing exactly that, not to mention ignoring intelligence warnings (and possibly lying about it).

I'm curious - since you appear to support the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan (unless I'm mistaken), how is Trump's deal one of the worst ever? It is not even as bad as the Iran deal where the US literally gave cash to terrorists and paid ransom money, all without obtaining any long term commitments. Not to mention a lot of other deals the US has made.

---

See here from this very thread: https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/103055/replies/1901936

You are right that Biden could have acted differently and we would probably be at war right now. Would you support that? There was never going to be a dream exit after Trump's horrible deal.

---

At war? With who? That's just silly. The US troops were already at a minimum level and not in the theatre of battle.

1. Announce indefinite delay in withdrawal due to Taliban non-compliance.

2.Increase troops for security purposes. Continue providing air support and intelligence.

3. Wait until winter when the fighting stops. Announce withdrawal (assuming that is what Biden in fact wants to do).

4. Evacuate non-essential civilian personnel and Afghan partners.

5.. Remove or destroy excess/high value military equipment. Develop contingency plan to destroy remaining.

6. Withdraw troops at the end of the winter fighting hiatus. Consider destroying Embassy and Bagram if/when the Taliban get close.

7. Continue providing intelligence and perhaps air support through advisors.

This is not brain science. The fact that Biden withdrew troops first is just inexplicable and unexcusable.

---

Dude, have you been paying attention? The point is that the Taliban were not attacking because of Trump's agreement to leave quickly. If they see us going back on those terms they could have attacked again. Then we would be back in active combat.

It that certain? No. But it's not a crazy assumption to think they might. Any suggestions that Biden should have waited longer or sent more troops in need to account for that possibility.

---

He sent more troops in last week - more than were there before the idiotic withdrawal. Did that cause a war? The taliban were basically stalemated in the big cities until the US pulled air and intelligence support. Then the country unraveled. There was no reason to pull that prior to removing the civilians.

There is an assumption in this thread that the Taliban are eager to fight a war with the US. I don't think that's the case.

Unit2Sucks said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Most of the criticism of Biden assumes a false choice. Biden didn't really have an opportunity to string this out or re-cut the deal and still end the occupation. He had a choice between re-engaging in hostilities or getting out now. Either way he was going to be criticized.

The problem was that Trump negotiated a Trumpian deal. He ignored his advisors and all prudence and made one of the worst deals that the US has ever made but thought it was a good deal. If history is any indication we will later find out that there was something in it for Trump personally.

So Biden either had to unwind the deal, send more Troops in and risk further American lives or continue with this quick withdrawal. I would have liked to have seen him get more of our people out including our Afghan allies, but the latter was made more difficult by Trump nuking the state department and Republicans making it harder to grant visas to Afghans.

Trump and Republicans tied his shoes together and then criticized him for tripping.

---

I think the bolded is a fair point. Trump's agreement certainly limited Biden's options. Just like the Iran agreement (and lots of other things Obama did) limited Trump's options. But the point is, Biden had options. And he certainly had the ability to manage the withdrawal better. He owns this. He has been in office for 7+ months and had a transition before that. More than enough time to plan a withdrawal.

And its rather funny you're pointing out that Trump didn't follow his advisors. Biden did and is doing exactly that, not to mention ignoring intelligence warnings (and possibly lying about it).

I'm curious - since you appear to support the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan (unless I'm mistaken), how is Trump's deal one of the worst ever? It is not even as bad as the Iran deal where the US literally gave cash to terrorists and paid ransom money, all without obtaining any long term commitments. Not to mention a lot of other deals the US has made.

---

See here from this very thread: https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/103055/replies/1901936

You are right that Biden could have acted differently and we would probably be at war right now. Would you support that? There was never going to be a dream exit after Trump's horrible deal.

---

At war? With who? That's just silly. The US troops were already at a minimum level and not in the theatre of battle.

1. Announce indefinite delay in withdrawal due to Taliban non-compliance.

2.Increase troops for security purposes. Continue providing air support and intelligence.

3. Wait until winter when the fighting stops. Announce withdrawal (assuming that is what Biden in fact wants to do).

4. Evacuate non-essential civilian personnel and Afghan partners.

5.. Remove or destroy excess/high value military equipment. Develop contingency plan to destroy remaining.

6. Withdraw troops at the end of the winter fighting hiatus. Consider destroying Embassy and Bagram if/when the Taliban get close.

7. Continue providing intelligence and perhaps air support through advisors.

This is not brain science. The fact that Biden withdrew troops first is just inexplicable and unexcusable.

---

Lol your solution is more war but you say that my suggestion is silly.

By the way you never responded regarding Trump's deal. What did you think about it? Any criticism or do you think it was good for the US or Afghanistan?

---

This topic is Joe Biden foreign policy. Is he obligated to give you an opinion on the previous president's deal? He already indicated that Biden had several options that were better than his cluster ****ing.

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Most of the criticism of Biden assumes a false choice. Biden didn't really have an opportunity to string this out or re-cut the deal and still end the occupation. He had a choice between re-engaging in hostilities or getting out now. Either way he was going to be criticized.

The problem was that Trump negotiated a Trumpian deal. He ignored his advisors and all prudence and made one of the worst deals that the US has ever made but thought it was a good deal. If history is any indication we will later find out that there was something in it for Trump personally.

So Biden either had to unwind the deal, send more Troops in and risk further American lives or continue with this quick withdrawal. I would have liked to have seen him get more of our people out including our Afghan allies, but the latter was made more difficult by Trump nuking the state department and Republicans making it harder to grant visas to Afghans.

Trump and Republicans tied his shoes together and then criticized him for tripping.

---

I think the bolded is a fair point. Trump's agreement certainly limited Biden's options. Just like the Iran agreement (and lots of other things Obama did) limited Trump's options. But the point is, Biden had options. And he certainly had the ability to manage the withdrawal better. He owns this. He has been in office for 7+ months and had a transition before that. More than enough time to plan a withdrawal.

And its rather funny you're pointing out that Trump didn't follow his advisors. Biden did and is doing exactly that, not to mention ignoring intelligence warnings (and possibly lying about it).

I'm curious - since you appear to support the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan (unless I'm mistaken), how is Trump's deal one of the worst ever? It is not even as bad as the Iran deal where the US literally gave cash to terrorists and paid ransom money, all without obtaining any long term commitments. Not to mention a lot of other deals the US has made.

---

See here from this very thread: https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/103055/replies/1901936

You are right that Biden could have acted differently and we would probably be at war right now. Would you support that? There was never going to be a dream exit after Trump's horrible deal.

---

At war? With who? That's just silly. The US troops were already at a minimum level and not in the theatre of battle.

1. Announce indefinite delay in withdrawal due to Taliban non-compliance.

2.Increase troops for security purposes. Continue providing air support and intelligence.

3. Wait until winter when the fighting stops. Announce withdrawal (assuming that is what Biden in fact wants to do).

4. Evacuate non-essential civilian personnel and Afghan partners.

5.. Remove or destroy excess/high value military equipment. Develop contingency plan to destroy remaining.

6. Withdraw troops at the end of the winter fighting hiatus. Consider destroying Embassy and Bagram if/when the Taliban get close.

7. Continue providing intelligence and perhaps air support through advisors.

This is not brain science. The fact that Biden withdrew troops first is just inexplicable and unexcusable.

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Lol your solution is more war but you say that my suggestion is silly.

By the way you never responded regarding Trump's deal. What did you think about it? Any criticism or do you think it was good for the US or Afghanistan?

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This topic is Joe Biden foreign policy. Is he obligated to give you an opinion on the previous president's deal? He already indicated that Biden had several options that were better than his cluster ****ing.

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If the previous president's deal created bad options for the next one, then it is relevant to the discussion.

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I analyzed the decisions Biden made given the options created by Trump's deal. They were dog**** decisions.

At what point do we start blaming the US military and specifically the career military officers that put together these intelligence assessments and evacuation plans for their utter failure over both the last 20 years and over the last year in planning for this evacuation.

It's not like Biden was the one in the war room drawing up the plans, the military advisers put together a series of plans, walked the president through them, then asked which one he wants to pursue.

Nonetheless, in spite of all the horribleness, I'm happy we finally made the right decision and pulled out completely. My tax money achieved absolutely nothing and it made no sense to keep fighting and it made no sense to delay and stay.

golden sloth said:

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At what point do we start blaming the US military and specifically the career military officers that put together these intelligence assessments and evacuation plans for their utter failure over both the last 20 years and over the last year in planning for this evacuation.

It's not like Biden was the one in the war room drawing up the plans, the military advisers put together a series of plans, walked the president through them, then asked which one he wants to pursue.

Nonetheless, in spite of all the horribleness, I'm happy we finally made the right decision and pulled out completely. My tax money achieved absolutely nothing and it made no sense to keep fighting and it made no sense to delay and stay.

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22 out of 23 of the American Foreign Service Officers warned Biden Administration on the imminent catastrophe. #AfghanistanCrisis @RichardGrenell pic.twitter.com/W4rrarzQ1D

— Big Fish (@BigFish3000) August 21, 2021

Those closest to the action in the US Embassy in Kabul were ignored by Secretary of State Blinken. He was warned of a rapid Taliban takeover back in July. And this past Sunday, he stated, "this is manifestly not Saigon", echoing Biden's remarks in July that the U.S would not see scenes like the Saigon retreat.

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/568674-us-diplomats-in-afghanistan-warned-blinken-in-july-country-could

dajo9 said:

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I'm better than all of them. I predicted the Taliban takeover in June and also predicted you would complain about how it's done.

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Stephen Hayes says Joe Biden has “lost touch with reality.”

"'Al-Qaeda is gone from Afghanistan?' That's not true. 'We haven't been criticized by our allies.' That's not true.’ Americans can make it to the airport without being harassed.' That's not true." pic.twitter.com/JeoUXkxBWq

— RNC Research (@RNCResearch) August 22, 2021

Do you think Biden is lying or just doesn't know what's going on?

Chris Wallace: Does the President not know what's going on?

Sec of State Blinken: This is an emotional time for many of us.

this about sums up the criticism.

It's not that I oppose opening the door, it's that I oppose the *way* we opened the door. I would simply have gotten all of the bowls out beforehand. pic.twitter.com/Zd99yCj1Vb

— Trevor (@trevorjtweets) August 22, 2021

Unit2Sucks said:

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this about sums up the criticism.

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The criticism is coming form all sides, conservatives, liberal media, our allies, and even our enemies. If Trump handled it the way Biden did they would be trying to impeach him for a third time and this time, the Democrats would know for certain they would have real reasons to do so.

Biden’s legacy pic.twitter.com/mVaNSzBzcS

— Lindsay Wigo (@LindsayWigo) August 23, 2021