DiabloWags said:

---

I must say, its been interesting to watch Trump America First! populists become George Bush neocons overnight.

---

Trump stripped the security clearances of all the 51 intel neocons who signed off on the Hunter Biden laptop disinformation letter.

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Iran is a repressive regime which has tortured, killed and brutalized their own citizens in the name of God.

The truth is that Iran is a young country and young Iranians are not particularly religious. This is why a bet on time- Iran nuclear deal- was wise

I'm not sorry to see Khameni dead, and would be ecstatic should a similar fate happen to Biibi.

---

I can't think of any government in the middle east that is not repressive. What is unique about Iran though is that it is a truly sovereign country, with an independent central bank.

Iran is not a particularly young country today, the median age is 34 (vs 39 in the US), it is a country of younger X geners and older millennials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iran#/media/File:Iran_single_age_population_pyramid_2020.png

It is also not a secular country by any means:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran#Irreligion

This being said, I agree completely about the bet on time and the nuclear deal being a wise options.

---

The state says it is Muslim but what else are they going to say


An independent survey found differently.

In contrast with state propaganda that portrays Iran as a Shia nation, only 32% explicitly identified as such, while 5% said they were Sunni Muslim and 3% Sufi Muslim. Another 9% said they were atheists, along with 7% who prefer the label of spirituality. Among the other selected religions, 8% said they were Zoroastrians which we interpret as a reflection of Persian nationalism and a desire for an alternative to Islam, rather than strict adherence to the Zoroastrian faith while 1.5% said they were Christian.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/iran-secular-shift-gamaan.html

---

This is the director of the outfit that did that "independent" survey:

https://x.com/LadiKhanom

Her outfit is funded by the NED, the Tony Blair Institute and the Department of State Foreign Operations.

Still think it's an independent survey?

---

Yes by my own experiences it's way more reliable than the state of Iran.

---

But far less reliable than the Pew Research Ctr.

It's not often that you take the neocon side in a debate. This is a good example of pinkwashing, priming liberals to endorse neocon wars of choice in the Mideast.

https://www.noirnews.org/p/gamaan-iran-polling-unreliable

Quote:

---

'Ideological,' 'not scientific': Iran polling firm GAMAAN flawed, not independent
GAMAAN has extensive ties to U.S. government-funded, pro-regime change orgs, and employs unreliable survey methods that produce misleading results

The Group for Analyzing and Measuring Attitudes in Iran (GAMAAN), an influential Dutch polling firm that employs unorthodox survey methods to "extract the (real) opinions of Iranians about (sensitive) social and political topics," routinely calls itself an "independent" research foundation.

News outlets and researchers citing GAMAAN have echoed this refrain when discussing the organization's headline-grabbing findings, which portray the Iranian citizenry as far more secular and regime-critical compared to other polling research. GAMAAN asserts that its survey results can be generalized to the entire population of "literate individuals over the age of 19 residing in Iran."

However, an investigation by Noir News reveals extensive ties between GAMAAN and U.S. government-funded organizations, many of which openly advocate for regime change in Iran, casting doubt on the polling group's stated independence. Further, GAMAAN's findings are not applicable to the entire Iranian populace due to biased survey methods that lead to an unrepresentative sample, according to multiple polling experts.

"[T]hey know what they think, and they want to use the language of social science to demonstrate that those claims are actually truth. And of course, that's a problem," said Daniel Tavana, an Assistant Professor of Political Science at Penn State who was a Principal Investigator for Princeton's Iran Social Survey.

"[T]hey're just ideological," Tavana said. "They are very opposed to the regime, want to embarrass the regime in whatever way they can, and are happy to say… whatever they think will most effectively do that in any given point of time, regardless of whether or not they have evidence for it."

While Iranian state-owned media has discussed some of GAMAAN's ties to Western-funded organizations and regime change proponents, and the limitations of its survey methods, Noir is the first to report the full scope of GAMAAN's numerous connections with U.S. government-funded regime change operatives, and the severity of its methodological issues.

---

I realize that this view is not very popular, but all you have to look at here is the experience of previous neocon regime change operations in the region, all of which have resulted in failed states and locals being crushed, with authoritarian regimes being replaced by chaos, poverty, civil wars and destitute misery, see Syria, Iraq, Libya.

These regime change operations are marketed as being done for the betterment of these target nations, with the results always being the opposite of that. In the case of Iran it will also result in global economic destabilization, more trillions for Forever War and casualties by the tens of thousands.

---

I'm not in favor of the war, not in favor of regime change. None of this is any threat to the US, but to believe that the Iranian theocracy is not a brutal, unpopular repressive regime is to ignore reality.

---

The reality here is that the lot of these people isn't going to get better through this war, that was my point.

The Hanoi communist regime in the 1970s was far more repressive than the current Iranian theocracy, but low and behold, left on its own, Vietnam is now thriving economically and becoming more liberal as their middle class grows larger. This is the kind of path Iran would take if left on its own.

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Iran is a repressive regime which has tortured, killed and brutalized their own citizens in the name of God.

The truth is that Iran is a young country and young Iranians are not particularly religious. This is why a bet on time- Iran nuclear deal- was wise

I'm not sorry to see Khameni dead, and would be ecstatic should a similar fate happen to Biibi.

---

I can't think of any government in the middle east that is not repressive. What is unique about Iran though is that it is a truly sovereign country, with an independent central bank.

Iran is not a particularly young country today, the median age is 34 (vs 39 in the US), it is a country of younger X geners and older millennials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iran#/media/File:Iran_single_age_population_pyramid_2020.png

It is also not a secular country by any means:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran#Irreligion

This being said, I agree completely about the bet on time and the nuclear deal being a wise options.

---

The state says it is Muslim but what else are they going to say


An independent survey found differently.

In contrast with state propaganda that portrays Iran as a Shia nation, only 32% explicitly identified as such, while 5% said they were Sunni Muslim and 3% Sufi Muslim. Another 9% said they were atheists, along with 7% who prefer the label of spirituality. Among the other selected religions, 8% said they were Zoroastrians which we interpret as a reflection of Persian nationalism and a desire for an alternative to Islam, rather than strict adherence to the Zoroastrian faith while 1.5% said they were Christian.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/iran-secular-shift-gamaan.html

---

This is the director of the outfit that did that "independent" survey:

https://x.com/LadiKhanom

Her outfit is funded by the NED, the Tony Blair Institute and the Department of State Foreign Operations.

Still think it's an independent survey?

---

Yes by my own experiences it's way more reliable than the state of Iran.

---

But far less reliable than the Pew Research Ctr.

It's not often that you take the neocon side in a debate. This is a good example of pinkwashing, priming liberals to endorse neocon wars of choice in the Mideast.

https://www.noirnews.org/p/gamaan-iran-polling-unreliable

Quote:

---

'Ideological,' 'not scientific': Iran polling firm GAMAAN flawed, not independent
GAMAAN has extensive ties to U.S. government-funded, pro-regime change orgs, and employs unreliable survey methods that produce misleading results

The Group for Analyzing and Measuring Attitudes in Iran (GAMAAN), an influential Dutch polling firm that employs unorthodox survey methods to "extract the (real) opinions of Iranians about (sensitive) social and political topics," routinely calls itself an "independent" research foundation.

News outlets and researchers citing GAMAAN have echoed this refrain when discussing the organization's headline-grabbing findings, which portray the Iranian citizenry as far more secular and regime-critical compared to other polling research. GAMAAN asserts that its survey results can be generalized to the entire population of "literate individuals over the age of 19 residing in Iran."

However, an investigation by Noir News reveals extensive ties between GAMAAN and U.S. government-funded organizations, many of which openly advocate for regime change in Iran, casting doubt on the polling group's stated independence. Further, GAMAAN's findings are not applicable to the entire Iranian populace due to biased survey methods that lead to an unrepresentative sample, according to multiple polling experts.

"[T]hey know what they think, and they want to use the language of social science to demonstrate that those claims are actually truth. And of course, that's a problem," said Daniel Tavana, an Assistant Professor of Political Science at Penn State who was a Principal Investigator for Princeton's Iran Social Survey.

"[T]hey're just ideological," Tavana said. "They are very opposed to the regime, want to embarrass the regime in whatever way they can, and are happy to say… whatever they think will most effectively do that in any given point of time, regardless of whether or not they have evidence for it."

While Iranian state-owned media has discussed some of GAMAAN's ties to Western-funded organizations and regime change proponents, and the limitations of its survey methods, Noir is the first to report the full scope of GAMAAN's numerous connections with U.S. government-funded regime change operatives, and the severity of its methodological issues.

---

I realize that this view is not very popular, but all you have to look at here is the experience of previous neocon regime change operations in the region, all of which have resulted in failed states and locals being crushed, with authoritarian regimes being replaced by chaos, poverty, civil wars and destitute misery, see Syria, Iraq, Libya.

These regime change operations are marketed as being done for the betterment of these target nations, with the results always being the opposite of that. In the case of Iran it will also result in global economic destabilization, more trillions for Forever War and casualties by the tens of thousands.

---

I'm not in favor of the war, not in favor of regime change. None of this is any threat to the US, but to believe that the Iranian theocracy is not a brutal, unpopular repressive regime is to ignore reality.

---

Cal88 never found an authoritarian foreign regime he wouldn't apologize for.

PAC-10-BEAR said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

I must say, its been interesting to watch Trump America First! populists become George Bush neocons overnight.

---

Trump stripped the security clearances of all the 51 intel neocons who signed off on the Hunter Biden laptop disinformation letter.

---

Ironically enough I bet all of them today approve Trump's neocon war on Iran...

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Iran is a repressive regime which has tortured, killed and brutalized their own citizens in the name of God.

The truth is that Iran is a young country and young Iranians are not particularly religious. This is why a bet on time- Iran nuclear deal- was wise

I'm not sorry to see Khameni dead, and would be ecstatic should a similar fate happen to Biibi.

---

I can't think of any government in the middle east that is not repressive. What is unique about Iran though is that it is a truly sovereign country, with an independent central bank.

Iran is not a particularly young country today, the median age is 34 (vs 39 in the US), it is a country of younger X geners and older millennials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iran#/media/File:Iran_single_age_population_pyramid_2020.png

It is also not a secular country by any means:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran#Irreligion

This being said, I agree completely about the bet on time and the nuclear deal being a wise options.

---

The state says it is Muslim but what else are they going to say


An independent survey found differently.

In contrast with state propaganda that portrays Iran as a Shia nation, only 32% explicitly identified as such, while 5% said they were Sunni Muslim and 3% Sufi Muslim. Another 9% said they were atheists, along with 7% who prefer the label of spirituality. Among the other selected religions, 8% said they were Zoroastrians which we interpret as a reflection of Persian nationalism and a desire for an alternative to Islam, rather than strict adherence to the Zoroastrian faith while 1.5% said they were Christian.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/iran-secular-shift-gamaan.html

---

This is the director of the outfit that did that "independent" survey:

https://x.com/LadiKhanom

Her outfit is funded by the NED, the Tony Blair Institute and the Department of State Foreign Operations.

Still think it's an independent survey?

---

Yes by my own experiences it's way more reliable than the state of Iran.

---

But far less reliable than the Pew Research Ctr.

It's not often that you take the neocon side in a debate. This is a good example of pinkwashing, priming liberals to endorse neocon wars of choice in the Mideast.

https://www.noirnews.org/p/gamaan-iran-polling-unreliable

Quote:

---

'Ideological,' 'not scientific': Iran polling firm GAMAAN flawed, not independent
GAMAAN has extensive ties to U.S. government-funded, pro-regime change orgs, and employs unreliable survey methods that produce misleading results

The Group for Analyzing and Measuring Attitudes in Iran (GAMAAN), an influential Dutch polling firm that employs unorthodox survey methods to "extract the (real) opinions of Iranians about (sensitive) social and political topics," routinely calls itself an "independent" research foundation.

News outlets and researchers citing GAMAAN have echoed this refrain when discussing the organization's headline-grabbing findings, which portray the Iranian citizenry as far more secular and regime-critical compared to other polling research. GAMAAN asserts that its survey results can be generalized to the entire population of "literate individuals over the age of 19 residing in Iran."

However, an investigation by Noir News reveals extensive ties between GAMAAN and U.S. government-funded organizations, many of which openly advocate for regime change in Iran, casting doubt on the polling group's stated independence. Further, GAMAAN's findings are not applicable to the entire Iranian populace due to biased survey methods that lead to an unrepresentative sample, according to multiple polling experts.

"[T]hey know what they think, and they want to use the language of social science to demonstrate that those claims are actually truth. And of course, that's a problem," said Daniel Tavana, an Assistant Professor of Political Science at Penn State who was a Principal Investigator for Princeton's Iran Social Survey.

"[T]hey're just ideological," Tavana said. "They are very opposed to the regime, want to embarrass the regime in whatever way they can, and are happy to say… whatever they think will most effectively do that in any given point of time, regardless of whether or not they have evidence for it."

While Iranian state-owned media has discussed some of GAMAAN's ties to Western-funded organizations and regime change proponents, and the limitations of its survey methods, Noir is the first to report the full scope of GAMAAN's numerous connections with U.S. government-funded regime change operatives, and the severity of its methodological issues.

---

I realize that this view is not very popular, but all you have to look at here is the experience of previous neocon regime change operations in the region, all of which have resulted in failed states and locals being crushed, with authoritarian regimes being replaced by chaos, poverty, civil wars and destitute misery, see Syria, Iraq, Libya.

These regime change operations are marketed as being done for the betterment of these target nations, with the results always being the opposite of that. In the case of Iran it will also result in global economic destabilization, more trillions for Forever War and casualties by the tens of thousands.

---

I'm not in favor of the war, not in favor of regime change. None of this is any threat to the US, but to believe that the Iranian theocracy is not a brutal, unpopular repressive regime is to ignore reality.

---

Cal88 never found an authoritarian foreign regime he wouldn't apologize for.

---

Zelensky's regime would be a counterexample here, as would every communist regime in eastern Europe before 1990, just to name a few authoritarian regimes I don't approve of.

I don't exactly approve of Iran's theocracy either, not my vibe, but trying to bomb it into submission and turning it into another Libya or Syria is not the answer.

There are also some authoritarian regimes like China that we don't approve of, but that most of the people there do, and here once again I don't think it is our business to regime change them.

This was all quite disturbing, to the extent that these guys are right. And they seem to have impeccable credentials. To wit:

1) There no longer is central control over Iranian units and they are in use it or lose mode, because their view is their uint may be blown-up in the next 48 hours. So they are busy attacking targets they can get at. Hence, for example, the attack on Oman was not authorized and Iran's President had to go on TV to apologize to Oman, but say things are out of his control.

2) The lack of a central command means there is no one to negotiate with who can stop the fighting.

3) There is a serous decline in Iran's targeting ability and thus civilians are likely to be hit. Some capacity of Iran' launchers are in caves or bunkers, which will require American sorties over the next few weeks, as Israel doesn't have the type of bombs to do the job.

4) There already was a humanitarian crises in Iran, as the Mullah's were failing to keep up the infrastructure. There is limited amount of food and water for the populace. At the moment no one is bombing what remains of working infrastructure.

5). On the nuclear side, the problem with Iran is the elements within the regime have a religious vision of the end of the world, and then a five year old messiah who fell into a well will arise and lead. Thus, rather than have nuclear bombs for deterrence, they have an actual intent to use them to blow-up the world, and begin anew with the Messiah. The more secular types in the regime also had no intent of giving up nuclear ambitions, as they saw the North Korea could never be threatened, while countries that have given up their nuclear weapons, such as Ukraine, are being pushed around. This vision btw apparently is used to justify the regime killing "millions" (is that number really true?) of Iran's own people. Everybody on the show seemed to know about this vision thing, but it certainly was news to me. Bottom line is negotiations were never going to work.

6) Israel and the US are not on the same page regarding once happens next. Israel wants a some form of secular monarchy constitutional democracy. The US has handed the Israelis a "no-kill" list of 10 to 15 names who it is assumed the US wants to lead a new government. That Israel was given this list suggests the people on the list are presently in the existing government and were potential targets of Israel.

Have a nice day...

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Iran is a repressive regime which has tortured, killed and brutalized their own citizens in the name of God.

The truth is that Iran is a young country and young Iranians are not particularly religious. This is why a bet on time- Iran nuclear deal- was wise

I'm not sorry to see Khameni dead, and would be ecstatic should a similar fate happen to Biibi.

---

I can't think of any government in the middle east that is not repressive. What is unique about Iran though is that it is a truly sovereign country, with an independent central bank.

Iran is not a particularly young country today, the median age is 34 (vs 39 in the US), it is a country of younger X geners and older millennials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iran#/media/File:Iran_single_age_population_pyramid_2020.png

It is also not a secular country by any means:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran#Irreligion

This being said, I agree completely about the bet on time and the nuclear deal being a wise options.

---

The state says it is Muslim but what else are they going to say


An independent survey found differently.

In contrast with state propaganda that portrays Iran as a Shia nation, only 32% explicitly identified as such, while 5% said they were Sunni Muslim and 3% Sufi Muslim. Another 9% said they were atheists, along with 7% who prefer the label of spirituality. Among the other selected religions, 8% said they were Zoroastrians which we interpret as a reflection of Persian nationalism and a desire for an alternative to Islam, rather than strict adherence to the Zoroastrian faith while 1.5% said they were Christian.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/iran-secular-shift-gamaan.html

---

This is the director of the outfit that did that "independent" survey:

https://x.com/LadiKhanom

Her outfit is funded by the NED, the Tony Blair Institute and the Department of State Foreign Operations.

Still think it's an independent survey?

---

Yes by my own experiences it's way more reliable than the state of Iran.

---

But far less reliable than the Pew Research Ctr.

It's not often that you take the neocon side in a debate. This is a good example of pinkwashing, priming liberals to endorse neocon wars of choice in the Mideast.

https://www.noirnews.org/p/gamaan-iran-polling-unreliable

Quote:

---

'Ideological,' 'not scientific': Iran polling firm GAMAAN flawed, not independent
GAMAAN has extensive ties to U.S. government-funded, pro-regime change orgs, and employs unreliable survey methods that produce misleading results

The Group for Analyzing and Measuring Attitudes in Iran (GAMAAN), an influential Dutch polling firm that employs unorthodox survey methods to "extract the (real) opinions of Iranians about (sensitive) social and political topics," routinely calls itself an "independent" research foundation.

News outlets and researchers citing GAMAAN have echoed this refrain when discussing the organization's headline-grabbing findings, which portray the Iranian citizenry as far more secular and regime-critical compared to other polling research. GAMAAN asserts that its survey results can be generalized to the entire population of "literate individuals over the age of 19 residing in Iran."

However, an investigation by Noir News reveals extensive ties between GAMAAN and U.S. government-funded organizations, many of which openly advocate for regime change in Iran, casting doubt on the polling group's stated independence. Further, GAMAAN's findings are not applicable to the entire Iranian populace due to biased survey methods that lead to an unrepresentative sample, according to multiple polling experts.

"[T]hey know what they think, and they want to use the language of social science to demonstrate that those claims are actually truth. And of course, that's a problem," said Daniel Tavana, an Assistant Professor of Political Science at Penn State who was a Principal Investigator for Princeton's Iran Social Survey.

"[T]hey're just ideological," Tavana said. "They are very opposed to the regime, want to embarrass the regime in whatever way they can, and are happy to say… whatever they think will most effectively do that in any given point of time, regardless of whether or not they have evidence for it."

While Iranian state-owned media has discussed some of GAMAAN's ties to Western-funded organizations and regime change proponents, and the limitations of its survey methods, Noir is the first to report the full scope of GAMAAN's numerous connections with U.S. government-funded regime change operatives, and the severity of its methodological issues.

---

I realize that this view is not very popular, but all you have to look at here is the experience of previous neocon regime change operations in the region, all of which have resulted in failed states and locals being crushed, with authoritarian regimes being replaced by chaos, poverty, civil wars and destitute misery, see Syria, Iraq, Libya.

These regime change operations are marketed as being done for the betterment of these target nations, with the results always being the opposite of that. In the case of Iran it will also result in global economic destabilization, more trillions for Forever War and casualties by the tens of thousands.

---

I'm not in favor of the war, not in favor of regime change. None of this is any threat to the US, but to believe that the Iranian theocracy is not a brutal, unpopular repressive regime is to ignore reality.

---

Cal88 never found an authoritarian foreign regime he wouldn't apologize for.

---

Zelensky's regime would be a counterexample here, as would every communist regime in eastern Europe before 1990, just to name a few authoritarian regimes I don't approve of.

I don't exactly approve of Iran's theocracy either, not my vibe, but trying to bomb it into submission and turning it into another Libya or Syria is not the answer.

There are also some authoritarian regimes like China that we don't approve of, but that most of the people there do, and here once again I don't think it is our business to regime change them.

---

I don't support attacking a country that wasn't attacking anyone else, but at the same time I'm not going to apologize for how those governments treat their citizens. That's all quite bad. I just think it's pretty unlikely that we could change that via outside military action.

That's besides Ukraine, which is not an authoritarian government at all.

You mean the ones that were from 2020? Do you have any sources from this decade showing it's not 80% as Pac10 claims?

Cal88 said:

---

PAC-10-BEAR said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

I must say, its been interesting to watch Trump America First! populists become George Bush neocons overnight.

---

Trump stripped the security clearances of all the 51 intel neocons who signed off on the Hunter Biden laptop disinformation letter.

---

Ironically enough I bet all of them today approve Trump's neocon war on Iran...

---

Kamala Harris for President!

Our future prosperity, security, global leadership, & national decency depend on her election.

Let’s make it happen. Vote Harris/Walz!

— John O. Brennan (@JohnBrennan) November 5, 2024

Hard to say, John Brennan hasn't tweeted since late 2024.

"The three U.S. F-15E Strike Eagle fighter jets mistakenly shot down by Kuwaiti forces on March 1, 2026, are valued between $90 million and $117 million each, depending on configuration. Total losses for the three aircraft could exceed $270 million, with some estimates citing up to $97 million per unit."
Barron's


Where does Kuwait mail the check?

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Iran is a repressive regime which has tortured, killed and brutalized their own citizens in the name of God.

The truth is that Iran is a young country and young Iranians are not particularly religious. This is why a bet on time- Iran nuclear deal- was wise

I'm not sorry to see Khameni dead, and would be ecstatic should a similar fate happen to Biibi.

---

I can't think of any government in the middle east that is not repressive. What is unique about Iran though is that it is a truly sovereign country, with an independent central bank.

Iran is not a particularly young country today, the median age is 34 (vs 39 in the US), it is a country of younger X geners and older millennials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iran#/media/File:Iran_single_age_population_pyramid_2020.png

It is also not a secular country by any means:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran#Irreligion

This being said, I agree completely about the bet on time and the nuclear deal being a wise options.

---

The state says it is Muslim but what else are they going to say


An independent survey found differently.

In contrast with state propaganda that portrays Iran as a Shia nation, only 32% explicitly identified as such, while 5% said they were Sunni Muslim and 3% Sufi Muslim. Another 9% said they were atheists, along with 7% who prefer the label of spirituality. Among the other selected religions, 8% said they were Zoroastrians which we interpret as a reflection of Persian nationalism and a desire for an alternative to Islam, rather than strict adherence to the Zoroastrian faith while 1.5% said they were Christian.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/iran-secular-shift-gamaan.html

---

This is the director of the outfit that did that "independent" survey:

https://x.com/LadiKhanom

Her outfit is funded by the NED, the Tony Blair Institute and the Department of State Foreign Operations.

Still think it's an independent survey?

---

Yes by my own experiences it's way more reliable than the state of Iran.

---

But far less reliable than the Pew Research Ctr.

It's not often that you take the neocon side in a debate. This is a good example of pinkwashing, priming liberals to endorse neocon wars of choice in the Mideast.

https://www.noirnews.org/p/gamaan-iran-polling-unreliable

Quote:

---

'Ideological,' 'not scientific': Iran polling firm GAMAAN flawed, not independent
GAMAAN has extensive ties to U.S. government-funded, pro-regime change orgs, and employs unreliable survey methods that produce misleading results

The Group for Analyzing and Measuring Attitudes in Iran (GAMAAN), an influential Dutch polling firm that employs unorthodox survey methods to "extract the (real) opinions of Iranians about (sensitive) social and political topics," routinely calls itself an "independent" research foundation.

News outlets and researchers citing GAMAAN have echoed this refrain when discussing the organization's headline-grabbing findings, which portray the Iranian citizenry as far more secular and regime-critical compared to other polling research. GAMAAN asserts that its survey results can be generalized to the entire population of "literate individuals over the age of 19 residing in Iran."

However, an investigation by Noir News reveals extensive ties between GAMAAN and U.S. government-funded organizations, many of which openly advocate for regime change in Iran, casting doubt on the polling group's stated independence. Further, GAMAAN's findings are not applicable to the entire Iranian populace due to biased survey methods that lead to an unrepresentative sample, according to multiple polling experts.

"[T]hey know what they think, and they want to use the language of social science to demonstrate that those claims are actually truth. And of course, that's a problem," said Daniel Tavana, an Assistant Professor of Political Science at Penn State who was a Principal Investigator for Princeton's Iran Social Survey.

"[T]hey're just ideological," Tavana said. "They are very opposed to the regime, want to embarrass the regime in whatever way they can, and are happy to say… whatever they think will most effectively do that in any given point of time, regardless of whether or not they have evidence for it."

While Iranian state-owned media has discussed some of GAMAAN's ties to Western-funded organizations and regime change proponents, and the limitations of its survey methods, Noir is the first to report the full scope of GAMAAN's numerous connections with U.S. government-funded regime change operatives, and the severity of its methodological issues.

---

I realize that this view is not very popular, but all you have to look at here is the experience of previous neocon regime change operations in the region, all of which have resulted in failed states and locals being crushed, with authoritarian regimes being replaced by chaos, poverty, civil wars and destitute misery, see Syria, Iraq, Libya.

These regime change operations are marketed as being done for the betterment of these target nations, with the results always being the opposite of that. In the case of Iran it will also result in global economic destabilization, more trillions for Forever War and casualties by the tens of thousands.

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I'm not in favor of the war, not in favor of regime change. None of this is any threat to the US, but to believe that the Iranian theocracy is not a brutal, unpopular repressive regime is to ignore reality.

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Cal88 never found an authoritarian foreign regime he wouldn't apologize for.

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This kind of criticism boils down to cultural naivety and a black or white perspective on the world beyond our shores. See also Francis F ukuyama's end of history neoliberal framework.

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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Cal88 said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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Cal88 said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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Cal88 said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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Iran is a repressive regime which has tortured, killed and brutalized their own citizens in the name of God.

The truth is that Iran is a young country and young Iranians are not particularly religious. This is why a bet on time- Iran nuclear deal- was wise

I'm not sorry to see Khameni dead, and would be ecstatic should a similar fate happen to Biibi.

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I can't think of any government in the middle east that is not repressive. What is unique about Iran though is that it is a truly sovereign country, with an independent central bank.

Iran is not a particularly young country today, the median age is 34 (vs 39 in the US), it is a country of younger X geners and older millennials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iran#/media/File:Iran_single_age_population_pyramid_2020.png

It is also not a secular country by any means:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran#Irreligion

This being said, I agree completely about the bet on time and the nuclear deal being a wise options.

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The state says it is Muslim but what else are they going to say


An independent survey found differently.

In contrast with state propaganda that portrays Iran as a Shia nation, only 32% explicitly identified as such, while 5% said they were Sunni Muslim and 3% Sufi Muslim. Another 9% said they were atheists, along with 7% who prefer the label of spirituality. Among the other selected religions, 8% said they were Zoroastrians which we interpret as a reflection of Persian nationalism and a desire for an alternative to Islam, rather than strict adherence to the Zoroastrian faith while 1.5% said they were Christian.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/iran-secular-shift-gamaan.html

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This is the director of the outfit that did that "independent" survey:

https://x.com/LadiKhanom

Her outfit is funded by the NED, the Tony Blair Institute and the Department of State Foreign Operations.

Still think it's an independent survey?

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Yes by my own experiences it's way more reliable than the state of Iran.

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But far less reliable than the Pew Research Ctr.

It's not often that you take the neocon side in a debate. This is a good example of pinkwashing, priming liberals to endorse neocon wars of choice in the Mideast.

https://www.noirnews.org/p/gamaan-iran-polling-unreliable

Quote:

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'Ideological,' 'not scientific': Iran polling firm GAMAAN flawed, not independent
GAMAAN has extensive ties to U.S. government-funded, pro-regime change orgs, and employs unreliable survey methods that produce misleading results

The Group for Analyzing and Measuring Attitudes in Iran (GAMAAN), an influential Dutch polling firm that employs unorthodox survey methods to "extract the (real) opinions of Iranians about (sensitive) social and political topics," routinely calls itself an "independent" research foundation.

News outlets and researchers citing GAMAAN have echoed this refrain when discussing the organization's headline-grabbing findings, which portray the Iranian citizenry as far more secular and regime-critical compared to other polling research. GAMAAN asserts that its survey results can be generalized to the entire population of "literate individuals over the age of 19 residing in Iran."

However, an investigation by Noir News reveals extensive ties between GAMAAN and U.S. government-funded organizations, many of which openly advocate for regime change in Iran, casting doubt on the polling group's stated independence. Further, GAMAAN's findings are not applicable to the entire Iranian populace due to biased survey methods that lead to an unrepresentative sample, according to multiple polling experts.

"[T]hey know what they think, and they want to use the language of social science to demonstrate that those claims are actually truth. And of course, that's a problem," said Daniel Tavana, an Assistant Professor of Political Science at Penn State who was a Principal Investigator for Princeton's Iran Social Survey.

"[T]hey're just ideological," Tavana said. "They are very opposed to the regime, want to embarrass the regime in whatever way they can, and are happy to say… whatever they think will most effectively do that in any given point of time, regardless of whether or not they have evidence for it."

While Iranian state-owned media has discussed some of GAMAAN's ties to Western-funded organizations and regime change proponents, and the limitations of its survey methods, Noir is the first to report the full scope of GAMAAN's numerous connections with U.S. government-funded regime change operatives, and the severity of its methodological issues.

---

I realize that this view is not very popular, but all you have to look at here is the experience of previous neocon regime change operations in the region, all of which have resulted in failed states and locals being crushed, with authoritarian regimes being replaced by chaos, poverty, civil wars and destitute misery, see Syria, Iraq, Libya.

These regime change operations are marketed as being done for the betterment of these target nations, with the results always being the opposite of that. In the case of Iran it will also result in global economic destabilization, more trillions for Forever War and casualties by the tens of thousands.

---

I'm not in favor of the war, not in favor of regime change. None of this is any threat to the US, but to believe that the Iranian theocracy is not a brutal, unpopular repressive regime is to ignore reality.

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Cal88 never found an authoritarian foreign regime he wouldn't apologize for.

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This kind of criticism boils down to cultural naivety and a black or white perspective on the world beyond our shores. See also Francis F ukuyama's end of history neoliberal framework.

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What's black and white? Some foreign governments are authoritarian and restrictive of freedom, they just are. You have a high tendency to make arguments in favor of those governments. As I said, I don't agree with going to war with them all (unless they are actually trying to attack us), but I will call a spade a spade.

WILD OPERATION 🔴

Israel hacked Tehran’s traffic camera network for years, feeding the footage into advanced intelligence analysis to monitor the routines, movements, work locations and protection details of senior Iranian officials and Khamenei’s bodyguards. That long-term…

— Open Source Intel (@Osint613) March 2, 2026

Iranian here!

I want to thank American leftists for educating me these past few days & correcting my understanding of Iran & radical Islam

I almost trusted my own experience, my parents’ trauma, and what my family in Iran endures daily instead of your wisdom. What would I…

— bita // بیتا (@_b33ts) March 2, 2026

🚨 BREAKING: NATO SecGen Mark Rutte just STUNNED the Democrats, coming out in 100% support of President Trump's Iran triumph

"The Commander-in-Chief, the leader of the free world, President Donald J. Trump, I REALLY commend what is happening here! Taking out Khamenei, taking out… pic.twitter.com/IZYqk9mh5j

— Eric Daugherty (@EricLDaugh) March 2, 2026

sycasey said:

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That's besides Ukraine, which is not an authoritarian government at all.

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Watching all those videos of Ukraine forces dragging conscripts into vans for war wasn't a good look for the government.

PAC-10-BEAR said:

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sycasey said:

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That's besides Ukraine, which is not an authoritarian government at all.

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Watching all those videos of Ukraine forces dragging conscripts for war wasn't a good look for the government.

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Yeah, and ICE activities in Minnesota weren't a good look for ours. Doesn't mean we're authoritarian (yet).

sycasey said:

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PAC-10-BEAR said:

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sycasey said:

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That's besides Ukraine, which is not an authoritarian government at all.

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Watching all those videos of Ukraine forces dragging conscripts for war wasn't a good look for the government.

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Yeah, and ICE activities in Minnesota weren't a good look for ours. Doesn't mean we're authoritarian (yet).

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Maybe not but when we start forcing people to go fight in Iran, let me know

sycasey said:

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PAC-10-BEAR said:

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sycasey said:

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That's besides Ukraine, which is not an authoritarian government at all.

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Watching all those videos of Ukraine forces dragging conscripts for war wasn't a good look for the government.

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Yeah, and ICE activities in Minnesota weren't a good look for ours. Doesn't mean we're authoritarian (yet).

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In the former example, the government is sending men to their deaths, in the latter, the government is sending people back to their country of citizenship.

PAC-10-BEAR said:

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sycasey said:

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PAC-10-BEAR said:

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sycasey said:

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That's besides Ukraine, which is not an authoritarian government at all.

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Watching all those videos of Ukraine forces dragging conscripts for war wasn't a good look for the government.

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Yeah, and ICE activities in Minnesota weren't a good look for ours. Doesn't mean we're authoritarian (yet).

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In the former example, the government is sending men to their deaths, in the latter, the government is sending people back to their country of citizenship.

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And also some citizens to their deaths.

sycasey said:

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PAC-10-BEAR said:

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sycasey said:

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PAC-10-BEAR said:

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sycasey said:

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That's besides Ukraine, which is not an authoritarian government at all.

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Watching all those videos of Ukraine forces dragging conscripts for war wasn't a good look for the government.

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Yeah, and ICE activities in Minnesota weren't a good look for ours. Doesn't mean we're authoritarian (yet).

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In the former example, the government is sending men to their deaths, in the latter, the government is sending people back to their country of citizenship.

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And also some citizens to their deaths.

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Alex Pretti went out of his way and used social media to find out where ICE was located and met them with his firearm.

sycasey said:

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PAC-10-BEAR said:

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sycasey said:

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PAC-10-BEAR said:

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sycasey said:

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That's besides Ukraine, which is not an authoritarian government at all.

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Watching all those videos of Ukraine forces dragging conscripts for war wasn't a good look for the government.

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Yeah, and ICE activities in Minnesota weren't a good look for ours. Doesn't mean we're authoritarian (yet).

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In the former example, the government is sending men to their deaths, in the latter, the government is sending people back to their country of citizenship.

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And also some citizens to their deaths.

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Due to the their own actions

BearlySane88 said:

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sycasey said:

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PAC-10-BEAR said:

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sycasey said:

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PAC-10-BEAR said:

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sycasey said:

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That's besides Ukraine, which is not an authoritarian government at all.

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Watching all those videos of Ukraine forces dragging conscripts for war wasn't a good look for the government.

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Yeah, and ICE activities in Minnesota weren't a good look for ours. Doesn't mean we're authoritarian (yet).

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In the former example, the government is sending men to their deaths, in the latter, the government is sending people back to their country of citizenship.

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And also some citizens to their deaths.

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Due to the their own actions

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Regardless of whether or not I agree with that framing, it was still a bad look.

dajo9 said:

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BearlySane88 said:

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I got a time out last week, just like you and two others on here did. They don't pick favorites.

Haven't seen movie in awhile but I saw a brobear post yesterday or today

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And you called me an idiot yesterday and were allowed to edit it away without any further issue. Meanwhile there are recent times I've been suspended and I don't even know why.

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As the (accidental) OP of this august thread, I'm going to exercise my right to get back to an earlier digression, specifically calling people idiots:

If somebody is actually an idiot, isn't it almost doing them a favor to notify them of the fact? Granted, said idiot will likely be in a state of denial, but perhaps if they hear it enough, they may go through a period of self-reflection where they come to the realization that they are indeed an idiot. Of course, idiocy is not a condition that can be rectified, but the idiot could perhaps self-isolate, so that others would not have to be exposed to their idiocy.

So maybe, instead of the truth-teller getting a ban, maybe they should get a cookie!


Okay, back to our designated topic. My take: What the hell gives Trump the right to do this? (rhetorical question) It's a rotten idea to bomb a sovereign nation and take out its leader for such insufficient cause. Okay, Iran does suck, but we should just let them suck. Let the Iranians decide themselves what to do about their suckitude.

Is this supposed to be about the mid-terms? Because I think it's going to have the opposite effect (thank goodness).

And I'm not arguing that, it was definitely not the optics you're hoping for

Iran is producing 100+ ballistic missiles per month and thousands of one way attack drones, aiming to build a retaliatory shield that would make its nuclear program untouchable

Iran is approaching a "point of immunity" within 1 to 1.5 years, where its missile and drone stockpiles would deter any strike

Sanctions have failed to stop the weapons buildup

Big C said:

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Is this supposed to be about the mid-terms? Because I think it's going to have the opposite effect (thank goodness).

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The political problem for Trump is that he quite specifically campaigned on NOT starting any foreign wars. I've posted multiple examples of this, from both him and the people on his team. This is the most obvious reversal of that promise (you could argue that Venezuela already was). So no, I don't think it will help him.

sycasey said:

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Big C said:

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Is this supposed to be about the mid-terms? Because I think it's going to have the opposite effect (thank goodness).

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The political problem for Trump is that he quite specifically campaigned on NOT starting any foreign wars. I've posted multiple examples of this, from both him and the people on his team. This is the most obvious reversal of that promise (you could argue that Venezuela already was). So no, I don't think it will help him.

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While campaigning, Trump explicitly said he would bomb the hell out of Iran. Why are we picking and choosing what promises to listen to or not?

sycasey said:

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Big C said:

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Is this supposed to be about the mid-terms? Because I think it's going to have the opposite effect (thank goodness).

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The political problem for Trump is that he quite specifically campaigned on NOT starting any foreign wars. I've posted multiple examples of this, from both him and the people on his team. This is the most obvious reversal of that promise (you could argue that Venezuela already was). So no, I don't think it will help him.

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Trump campaigned on bombing Iran.

Big C said:

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Is this supposed to be about the mid-terms? Because I think it's going to have the opposite effect (thank goodness).

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Trump fulfills a campaign promise and is bringing in new supporters?

Iranian women are the happiest people on this earth right now. pic.twitter.com/bM1woGz8Kn

— Marina Medvin 🇺🇸 (@MarinaMedvin) March 2, 2026

BearlySane88 said:

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Iran is producing 100+ ballistic missiles per month and thousands of one way attack drones, aiming to build a retaliatory shield that would make its nuclear program untouchable

Iran is approaching a "point of immunity" within 1 to 1.5 years, where its missile and drone stockpiles would deter any strike

Sanctions have failed to stop the weapons buildup

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I respect and admire your encyclopedic knowledge of the State secrets of the Iranian government.

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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BearlySane88 said:

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Iran is producing 100+ ballistic missiles per month and thousands of one way attack drones, aiming to build a retaliatory shield that would make its nuclear program untouchable

Iran is approaching a "point of immunity" within 1 to 1.5 years, where its missile and drone stockpiles would deter any strike

Sanctions have failed to stop the weapons buildup

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I respect and admire your encyclopedic knowledge of the State secrets of the Iranian government.

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I have no idea what the point of your post is but it's seemingly an attempt to slight me. These are well known facts to anyone who has been paying attention to the situation in Iran

PAC-10-BEAR said:

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Big C said:

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Is this supposed to be about the mid-terms? Because I think it's going to have the opposite effect (thank goodness).

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Trump fulfills a campaign promise and is bringing in new supporters?

Iranian women are the happiest people on this earth right now. pic.twitter.com/bM1woGz8Kn

— Marina Medvin 🇺🇸 (@MarinaMedvin) March 2, 2026

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The mothers of the 150 girls who were killed in the school bombing, and these little girls themselves, are as sad as can be.

BearlySane88 said:

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You mean the ones that were from 2020? Do you have any sources from this decade showing it's not 80% as Pac10 claims?

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I would have gone to Walnut Creek to check on that claim but unfortunately the pac-10 has recently dissolved.

Cal88 said:

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PAC-10-BEAR said:

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Big C said:

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Is this supposed to be about the mid-terms? Because I think it's going to have the opposite effect (thank goodness).

---

Trump fulfills a campaign promise and is bringing in new supporters?

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The mothers of the 150 girls who were killed in the school bombing, and these little girls themselves, are as sad as can be.

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Iranian misguided missile military junk?

PAC-10-BEAR said:

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sycasey said:

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Big C said:

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Is this supposed to be about the mid-terms? Because I think it's going to have the opposite effect (thank goodness).

---

The political problem for Trump is that he quite specifically campaigned on NOT starting any foreign wars. I've posted multiple examples of this, from both him and the people on his team. This is the most obvious reversal of that promise (you could argue that Venezuela already was). So no, I don't think it will help him.

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Trump campaigned on bombing Iran.

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He campaigned on ending Forever War, and ranted ad nauseum about how the neocons were ruining the country with their endless foreign wars. That was actually how he sunk iJeb! in the 2016 debate, running against Dubya's disastrous Iraqi war.

The main reason he tore off Obama's JCPOA is that his main donors, Adelson, Singer et al paid him a quarter billion dollars to do that and bomb Iran for Israel.

Cal88 said:

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BearlySane88 said:

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You mean the ones that were from 2020? Do you have any sources from this decade showing it's not 80% as Pac10 claims?

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I would have gone to Walnut Creek to check on that claim but unfortunately the pac-10 has recently dissolved.

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In 2011… I taught two of Larry Scott's kids. He was as big of a tool as a parent as he was as a commissioner